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Topic: Ludwig Breakbeats |
Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 20 May 2016 5:11 pm |
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Sort of a recording topic because I would like to become really good at recording and mixing drums...which can be a tricky thing to do.
I went to Guitar Center the other day to check out one of these kits:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Ludwig/Breakbeats-by-Questlove-4-Piece-Shell-Pack-Azure-Sparkle-1351522047918.gc
I gotta say, I was completely shocked by how much THUMP is delivered from the little 16" kick with this drum set. WOW!
I went back again today to make sure I wasn't imagining things.
It really sounds great. I'm impressed.
One thing that I think is cool, is that it doesn't take up much space and can be easily stored away when not in use.
Of course it's probably not too terrible to carry it from one location to another too.
Anyway, Ludwig did a nice job with this kit and it's offered at an extremely good price too.
I really want to get one.
Rick |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 22 May 2016 12:48 pm
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| I went through the same thing awhile back and drove myself crazy with accoustic drums and mics and so on.......I ended up with a Roland electronic set and havent looked back. Although its more expensive than a single set, I have access to many different sounds when I need them, not to mention the time saved in editing drum tracks as I use a TD20 with 4 mono and 2 stereo tracks into ProTools. I would rent the set you are looking at and do some recording with it to make sure its what you need...... If it is, grab it. I also have a drummer whose opinion I trust to do my sessions and give me feedback. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 22 May 2016 2:55 pm
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Hi Jim,
I have a Roland TD-4 V-kit and I like it very much.
I use it to trigger Steven Slate Platinum Drums as well as XLN Addictive Drums.
They do sound great, but they don't have quite the same "mojo" as a real drum set,IMO.
It's true that setting up a real drum set properly requires a lot more work, but I think the end result is worth it.
It might be nice to use the Breakbeats kit, then possibly layer the kit with the different sampled drums from either Steven Slate or Addictive Drums.
I think it would be fun to experiment.
Thank you for your input.
Rick |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 22 May 2016 4:53 pm
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| I am using a TD 15 set with upgraded snare(PD125BK) and a TD 20 Module and the sounds are very real. I also trigger Superior Drummer with some add on sounds. I would like to try the Nashville pack with Harry Stinson recorded at Blackbird Studios with some vintage kits. It is worth bringing in a pro drummer to set your parameters in the TD set. Im not a drummer..but I noticed a huge difference after he tweaked the set on the 15 module and he is working on the 20 as well. |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 22 May 2016 7:16 pm regarding real drums vs canned drums
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really depends on what you're after and whether you're a drummer, have access to one or not. If you want to make your real drum kit sound like it was recorded at some big-name-studio, played by one of the current crop top session drummers and engineered by some big name guy using a million expensive mics and preamps in the world's most perfect room (Yawn!!!) then save yourself the hassle and use superior drummer or something like it since that's what most real drums recorded today end up sounding like and feeling like anyway. But if you're like me and get a rash every time you hear "that sound" then, by all means, use a real drumkit. I'll take a real kit recorded poorly over anything that 's being done with SD or by real drummers in the world's most fabulous studios in most genres these days anytime. There are exceptions which can't be faked by SD, Jay Belrose or Jim Keltner come to mind, guys that have their sound, and there are many others (thankfully) but if you want the generic high dollar sound, played the generic highly competent way, get it the easy way using your computer.
Now how about trying to fake this?
https://youtu.be/9_0zrd2u3uk
or this:
https://youtu.be/1I5bAVdIsbY
I'd say go with them real drums  |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 22 May 2016 8:38 pm Re: regarding real drums vs canned drums
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| werner althaus wrote: |
I'll take a real kit recorded poorly over anything that 's being done with SD or by real drummers in the world's most fabulous studios in most genres these days anytime. There are exceptions which can't be faked by SD, Jay Belrose or Jim Keltner come to mind, guys that have their sound, and there are many others (thankfully)
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This my feeling on the subject of drums.
The sampled drums do sound very good and I'll most likely still use them, but they don't have as much personality, IMO.
I can play basic drum tracks, but I'm definitely not going to attempt playing every single drum track that I record. No way.
One of the reasons I posted this thread is because this kit seems to be a good choice for someone who would like to have drummers come over to lay down tracks every now and then
It sounds really good, it's very reasonably priced, doesn't take up a lot of space and stores away easily when it's not being used.
Rick |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 22 May 2016 8:47 pm
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BTW, I know that I've been on this forum raving about amp modelers.
But I'm starting to feel the same way about amp modelers as I do about sampled drums.
They have their place, but I prefer the real thing.
I'm finding myself going back to using my real amps more and more these days.
They just sound better to me.
Same with real drums.
Rick |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 22 May 2016 9:36 pm Re: regarding real drums vs canned drums
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| Rick Schacter wrote: |
One of the reasons I posted this thread is because this kit seems to be a good choice for someone who would like to have drummers come over to lay down tracks every now and then
It sounds really good, it's very reasonably priced, doesn't take up a lot of space and stores away easily when it's not being used.
Rick |
Exactly, I'd much rather have a drummer sit down at a minimally miced great sounding kit and PLAY to a track than have him show me how to program superior drummer. Or maybe a blend of the two but it has to have the human element in there, and not just from triggering sounds that get recorded as numeric values assigned to velocity and time. I can accept a real guitar played through an amp modeller much easier than a real drummer triggering or programming canned sounds. Plus it's much faster to make changes in sound and playing happening with a real kit and it's more fun than just auditioning samples. And to my ears the SD variant never sounds like one instrument (the drums that is) but just an assortment of individual sounds that don't have anything to do with each other, despite such things as mic bleed and other clever digital trickery. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 23 May 2016 9:22 am Re: regarding real drums vs canned drums
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| werner althaus wrote: |
to my ears the SD variant never sounds like one instrument (the drums that is) but just an assortment of individual sounds that don't have anything to do with each other, despite such things as mic bleed and other clever digital trickery. |
Yes indeed.
A great example is the sound of striking a key on a piano.
When you hit middle "C", you're not only hearing that key.
Part of the tone is coming from the fact that the other strings are sounding off too.
Same with a drum set.
If you hit one drum the other drums in the kit will sound off.
These days, my feeling about sampled sounds is this:
Sampled instruments sound good and certainly do have their place.
Sometimes there is no other choice but to use them.
I'm even very glad that we have the luxury of samples being available if necessary.
But if I have the opportunity to use real instruments, that are performed by real musicians, that would be my preferred choice.
Rick |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 23 May 2016 10:14 am
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My biggest problem with sampled drums is that the effect it has on the music is hard to quantify but I'm reminded of the old Brian Wilson statement that guitar tuners ruined music (or something to that effect) When I listen to the majority of drummers in popular music today I hear that they grew up with a very "inside the box" type of approach as if the goal was to emulate Kenny Aronoff or something. To me a computer does this just as good, if not better than the real thing. I perceive these type of drum tracks as utterly boring and predictable, no wonder the white stripes stood out with that woman on drums, yes it sucked but at least it was real. Having a conventional proficient studio drummer play to a click is real only in the sense that he's chasing the computer performance in most cases. This wasn't always the case. Before non-linear editing and quantizing made everything too easy there were studio guys who could really play with a click AND retain a great groove but I haven't heard that in a long time, except for those aforementioned exceptions.
Having said that I use drum samples quite a bit, but only to support a deficient recording or mix. For that it is a marvelous tool.
So how are you going to mic the kit? What's the size of your recording space? |
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Joe Ribaudo
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 23 May 2016 1:41 pm
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I gave up on digi drums... too many false triggers etc. at least for anything under 1200.00.
I finally bit the bullet and picked up an old Ludwig Rocker kit on Craig's list, then set about treating my pitifully small recording space to minimize reflections. Then I realized that without a really good sounding space, getting a decent mix w/ 3 mic's is nearly impossible - regardless of how good the mic's are. So that meant buying more mic pre's to accommodate the 5 or 6 channels I've settled on. Of course, that meant buying a new interface to accommodate 6 channels.
But sound wise - it was worth it.
_________________
Sho~Bud Super Pro, Fender Concert, NV400, Orange, (LP's, Tele's, Gretsch, Burns, etc...) |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 23 May 2016 3:05 pm
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I did it.
I traded one of my faded brown Gibson SG's for an Azure Sparkle Ludwig kit (I really don't need two SG's).
Now to put this thing together.
Werner,
I don't have a big space for drums, so I'm not planning to use room mic's with this thing.
My youngest boy recently moved out of the house making my wife and I empty nesters and now I have a drum room.
For mic's I'm planning to try out an SM57 on the snare, a Sennheiser 421 or maybe an Electrovoice RE-20 on the kick and possibly two AT-4033's for overheads.
I'd like to try using a Glynn Johns type of technique.
There are a couple of videos that I found on Youtube regarding the recording of drums in a small room.
One is from Ronan Chris Murphy and the other is from Warren Huart.
I'll try to find them.
Rick
**Forgot to answer about the size of drum room.
The ceiling is only 8 feet high and the room is approximately 10'x 13' (I just measured the room).
***Here's one of the videos that I mentioned above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFoQxlLhxkY |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 23 May 2016 7:29 pm
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| Rick Schacter wrote: |
I did it.
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Congrats on your drum kit. Regarding the room size, I don't think you need a big room to get good drum sounds but I would advise to do some acoustic control if needed. Bass traps and broadband absorbers are really useful but you'll sacrifice when using the room for other sources like acoustic guitars, etc. Finding the right blend between live and dead plus eliminating standing waves is important. If the drums sound good in the room then they'll record well. 421 is a great mic for kick, so is the RE 20,, 57 on snare is a no-brainer but play around with placement, it's very critical and there are no rules other than the fundamental is in the center of the head and the overtones are on the side. Glyn Johns is a fine approach, a bit of a fad these days so try conventional as well, as long as you place the Overheads equidistant from snare and kick.
Regarding the video, I find that the drums sound best before he mucks them up with all that compression and transient design stuff. By itself it may sound tempting but in the mix it's going to sound weaker, less musical. Fact is that digital tricks don't replace proper micing technique and room conditions. Before using any plug-ins I'd recommend getting the best sound by moving the kit and the mics around. Do that until you maxed out that process, then use plug-ins to optimize what you have. You are recording your drums in your room, no 2 ways about it. i'd stay away from trying to make it into something it isn't.
Oh, and before I forget, learn as much as you can about tuning and get a drummer who doesn't play too loud for your space. A light to medium touch with the correct balance between drums and cymbals (an almost lost art if you ask me) will make for better results than some guy pounding the snot out of the kit. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 24 May 2016 8:29 am
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Werner,
The room will be used for drums and only drums.
My mix area is in a different room.
As far as the video is concerned...I was under the impression that he wasn't planning to use that "Bonham effect" for the final mix of that song.
I think he was simply pointing out how you could possibly get that type of sound from a small room. Like you, I also preferred the dry drum sound.
This was one of the videos I saw that gave me a bit of courage to go ahead and try recording drums again in my home.
I agree with you that you should get the best possible tone from the instrument before even touching an FX unit.
The first thing I'm planning to do is get a couple of drum lessons to learn how to tune this thing up properly.
If I can get this kit to sound like this guy did, I'll be very happy.
I'm talking about tuning. Not necessarily chops...although I did enjoy listening to his chops too. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G85drnAU28g
Rick |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 25 May 2016 1:24 pm
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| I think the key to getting good drum sounds whether it is an electronic set or accoustic set is the player IMHO. As for your idea of layering sounds, look at some of Nate Mortons (The Voice) videos on YouTube and he has a hybrid set and mixes and layers them. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 25 May 2016 5:10 pm
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| Jim Park wrote: |
| I think the key to getting good drum sounds whether it is an electronic set or accoustic set is the player IMHO. As for your idea of layering sounds, look at some of Nate Mortons (The Voice) videos on YouTube and he has a hybrid set and mixes and layers them. |
Absolutely. Without good musicians, there won't be good tracks.
No matter what instrument we're talking about.
I'm really impressed with this little Ludwig kit.
That being said, I'm not planning to get rid of my Roland V kit.
It's really nice to have different options in the tool box.
Rick |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 29 May 2016 8:57 pm
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Good players, hmm.....what exactly does that mean? I'm a terrible drummer but I have recorded a few tracks where I play everything, including drums and with some editing I think the results have character so I'd beg to differ here. It works because I used a real drumkit and played them the best I can. With an electronic kit it would have been garbage IMHO. So much great music has been recorded by musicians with questionable chops, just think of Paul English, Willie Nelsons drummer, there's no way he's a "good player", I don't even think he knows how to tune his drums BUT in Willie's band he's gold. Or take Ralph Molina from Crazy Horse, no way is he a "good player" but in the context of neil Young's Crazy Horse he's awesome. Drums is weird that way. A "good drummer" more often than not is a boring drummer, Charlie Watts, not a good drummer, but a joy to listen to, same with Ringo, any kid in a cover band could play circles around Ringo BUT...
I still believe that when it comes to pounding the heartbeat of the music a synthetic drumtrack is the death of music. Anything played on a real kit is better, doesn't matter how incompetent the player.
Just my personal opinion, nothing more. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 29 May 2016 10:59 pm
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Werner,
IMO, each one of the drummers that you mentioned are good musicians because they played exactly what was needed for the song
Being good doesn't always equal being complicated.
I believe what you say about the drum track that you recorded being just fine after editing.
But having good musicians so you don't have to do much editing sure does make the job of mixing a lot easier...right?? |
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 30 May 2016 1:19 pm
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| Rick Schacter wrote: |
Werner,
IMO, each one of the drummers that you mentioned are good musicians because they played exactly what was needed for the song
Being good doesn't always equal being complicated.
I believe what you say about the drum track that you recorded being just fine after editing.
But having good musicians so you don't have to do much editing sure does make the job of mixing a lot easier...right?? |
I get what you're saying but if Paul English, Ralph Molina, Ringo Starr or Charlie Watts went undercover at a recording date they'd be shown the door for being incompetent players within minutes. My point is that with real drums there can be great results even with lesser players while with electronic drums there can't. Is it universal truth? No but for me it explains a lot. Real drums let the player's personality come through, for better or worse. I know I'm the only person in the universe who can't stand John Bonham but it's not because his drums sound a certain way, it's because he sounds like an a@#hole playing drums. If he'd have used simmons drums I doubt I would have the same reaction. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 30 May 2016 3:59 pm
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Ringo's drums sound great and his inner clock is damn near perfect.
What more could you ask for in a drummer? |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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werner althaus
From:
lincoln, NE
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Posted 30 May 2016 7:35 pm
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| Rick Schacter wrote: |
Back on topic:
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I don't think I went too far off topic here since it seemed to me that the dialog was whether electronic drums are a better alternative to using a real drum kit. many would argue that they are and their reasons are perfectly good and valid. If your primary objective is to record a demo with that sound that only a huge room and tons of high end mics and outboard gear gives you then EZ drummer et al are the way to go, no need to bother with trying to mic a kit in your bedroom, you'll never get there, it can't be done. But if your primary goal is to have a result that feels like a drummer played drums on your recording then the real kit wins every time. It seems to me that it all comes down to the desired results, something that I mentioned in my opening line.
| Rick Schacter wrote: |
Ringo's drums sound great and his inner clock is damn near perfect.
What more could you ask for in a drummer? |
I love Ringo but I don't believe he'd make it as a drummer these days which is really a shame IMO.
I have seen that video and I'd like to address a few points worth noting.
A: The guy says "I'm using an old Neumann M49 as overhead but you can use any LDC for this" or something to that effect. I am not a cork sniffing vintage gear-hound by any stretch of the imagination but an M49 isn't just another LDC, it is absolutely killer at pulling in rich fat tones at a distance. I'd call that "reach" which is not to be confused with polar pattern. You can put 2 LDCs set to Cardioid next to each other and the results at a distance will vary dramatically, one will sound colored, thin and indirect while the M49 will sound like it's right there, with full bandwidth, detail and heft. Neumanns are known for this and the M49 is king in that department so I'd say you won't get comparable results using a cheap chinese LDC.
B; He goes on to saying that setting gain is really easy in digital, just hit a loud note and set so it doesn't go into the red, actually a few reds aren't worth fussing about. What he's probably trying to say is that in digital you don't have to worry about how hitting the recorder at various levels will impart changes in tone, good or bad, like it does with analog tape. So he is correct that as long as it doesn't clip it's fine. Sounds easy enough but there's some key info missing here IMHO. Not everybody uses an interface that has accurate metering that shows you what's going on, not every DAW has metering that can be trusted. Meter ballistics are virtual and can mean anything, Peak, True peak, VU and anything in between. Then there's outboard gear in front of your interface. lets assume you use that outboard compressor we talked about in the other thread and it has a max output of +24dBu with a +4dBu analog reference. Your interface has line level balanced ins (XLR or TRS) so everything is good, right? Wrong! Your interface might look like it has decent I/O running at +4dBu reference but many units have max input levels as low as +2dBu running at -10dBv reference and what they use a digital reference is anyones guess. Good luck trying to find out those specs BTW, they hide those really well these days so IMHO it is harder to set levels these days because you don't have any meters you can trust and you don't have the specs to know the bottleneck in your signal path yet it is more important than ever to deliver the proper signal level to the recorder than ever before because today's digital prosumer or consumer gear is a lot of things but forgiving isn't one of them. Then there is this thing that those built in "pro grade micpres" promising sonic bliss for cheap don't sound so good when pushed even though they do technically stay clean. raspy thin sound sets in while all the meters look good. There's a reason a lot of very experienced recording engineers will tell you that the best way to record today is to keep levels ueber conservative with peaks (the loud stuff) at -12 or even -18 dBFS (that's the digital meter, FS meaning full scale= nothing above zero) |
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