| Author |
Topic: "Db" vs "C#"....? |
Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
|
Posted 25 May 2016 10:04 pm |
|
| The last time I was learning to read standard notation was in middle school when I played baritone in the band for two years. We never referred to any note by sharp, they were always flat (for example, we never used D# because it was always Eb). What is generally preferred with steel guitarists? I'm confused, and not even sure if I'm asking the right question.... I need to understand the steel guitar on a deeper level than doodling around fishing for notes. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 25 May 2016 10:27 pm
|
|
Horns mostly play in flatted keys, and strings usually play in sharped keys.
Most country and related genres tends to be in the sharped keys, (although we DO use F at times) because they're largely guitar-driven.
I call them by the name that makes sense in terms of the song in question.
So a horn player will call it Eb, as it's the second flat, but to a guitar picker, it's D#, because that's the third of a B chord, the V of E.
Or, in the case of the accidental in the subject line, most here will call it C#, being the third to A Major.
And I'll change the subject before I'll mix sharps and flats.
Or, what B0b's saying.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 25 May 2016 10:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 25 May 2016 10:27 pm
|
|
It's all about context. The pedal steel is tuned to the notes of the E scale. The key of E has 4 sharps:
E F# G# A B C# D#
If you named those notes with flats, you'd have 2 A's and 2 E's, and no F or C notes:
E Gb Ab A B Db Eb
This would make reading music very difficult. If the entire tuning were lowered a half step, we'd be in the key of Eb and and the scale notes would be:
Eb F G Ab Bb C D - (not D# F G G# A# C D)
Again, no letters are duplicated in the key of Eb, but the "key of D#" would be missing two letter names.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Dave Stroud
From:
Texas
|
Posted 26 May 2016 12:18 am
|
|
| Thanks Lane and B0b! That makes more sense that the music would be easier to read without duplicate letters. If I insisted on using an Ab instead of G# in the key of E, I would have to write out an Ab note and switch back and forth from an A natural note when I needed to write an A, as opposed to just writing a G note, which would assume a G# due to the key. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 26 May 2016 6:27 am
|
|
Guitars music is generally read in Concert C like a piano - i.e., non-transposing, unlike your horn. So what you name a black-key note depends on what key you're playing in relative to C. If you're playing in a flatted key signature where the diatonic major scale contains the note: F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb - then that note is the flatted version of the enharmonic pair. If you're playing in a sharped key: G, D, A, E, B, F# - then it's a sharp. This minimizes the number of sharps/flats in that key signature's diatonic major scale. Notes off the diatonic major scale are then accidentals in that key signature.
If you're talking about just naming the notes of a tuning, I don't think it matters what you call it. I'm not going to get my shorts in a knot if someone calls open string 2 of an E9 tuning Eb instead of D#. But if one was playing in the key of E, the correct name is D#, which is the seventh major scale degree in the key of E. On the other hand, in the key of Eb, it is the root and properly called Eb. |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 8:41 am
|
|
When I chart it is always in #s
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 26 May 2016 9:29 am
|
|
E F# G# A B C# D#
would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##? |
|
|
|
Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 9:53 am
|
|
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##? |
That chord uses notes outside the scale. And you don't have to express those by adding an extra sharp to the basic scale note. You could just use the simplest name (D instead of C##).
In written notation, you would write it as a D... but would have to add a natural symbol next to that note to 'wave off' the D# that this line normally indicates. That's how you get away with having the letter 'D' used twice, by writing in an exception to the normal rule.
But back to the basic major scale of the key -- you can't use a letter twice. This is what forces some keys, like F to be designated as "flat" (if you tried to express it using sharp names, a letter of the alphabet would be used twice, and that makes reading notation confusing).
And once you're in a key that's designated as flat, you use flat names for all notes, both notes that are in the scale and those that you need that fall outside the scale. Similarly, in a sharp key (like G or D), you use only sharp names. You don't mix sharps and flats within one song. Once the key is stated, it dictates which side of the fence you're on.
Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 26 May 2016 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
|
Posted 26 May 2016 10:14 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
It's all about context. The pedal steel is tuned to the notes of the E scale. The key of E has 4 sharps:
E F# G# A B C# D#
|
Right,and the open 9th string D should be written D with the natural sign.(don't know how to type that on a pc)
Also,the B to Bb change should be B to A# and E to F change should be E to E# and the E to Eb one should be E to D#
(JMHO)  |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 26 May 2016 11:25 am
|
|
I am so glad that this has all been explained really well and without any fights breaking out. Well done everybody.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Don R Brown
From:
Rochester, New York, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 1:26 pm
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I am so glad that this has all been explained really well and without any fights breaking out. Well done everybody. |
Oh, give it time - you don't really think we're done here yet, do you?  |
|
|
|
Ben Edmonds
From:
Greenfield, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 1:50 pm
|
|
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
E F# G# A B C# D#
would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##? |
No. It would be a d natural not c##. D is the b7 of e
No matter what you build in 3rds with chords hence the difference between enharmonic spellings |
|
|
|
Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
|
Posted 26 May 2016 3:29 pm
|
|
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
E F# G# A B C# D#
would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##? |
it's E G# B D G
Last edited by Jamie Mitchell on 26 May 2016 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 26 May 2016 3:36 pm
|
|
I have often wondered why the 7#9 chord is not called 7b10. To my ear the top note is a blue note, an alternative flat third an octave above the harmonically correct one. After years of hearing it this way, I was surprised when I learnt to read chord symbols that everyone calls it a #9 - I don't hear it as such. Is it just me?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 4:14 pm
|
|
In my studies in ethnomusicology, I discovered that, before Bach, C# and Db were different. When J.S. Bach published The Well Tempered Clavichord, he fused them together by playing them quickly (my quantum mechanics prof said it was the first instance of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) that you couldn't tell the difference between them. Then keyboards and other instruments were built to accommodate tempering.
_________________
Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
Rickenbacher B6
3 Resonator guitars
Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
Canopus D8 |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 6:09 pm
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I am so glad that this has all been explained really well and without any fights breaking out. Well done everybody. |
Don't make me kick your ..... Uh, nevermind.
Thanks. we Americans can be civil when we want to 
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 26 May 2016 6:38 pm
|
|
| Jamie Mitchell wrote: |
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
E F# G# A B C# D#
would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##? |
it's E G# B D G |
The D would be naturaled, and the F double sharped.
G isn't a sharped 9,but a flatted third.
It's not a flat tenth because chords are built in thirds.
You got to G on the first step.
And both a sharp and natural G in the same chord hurts the brane.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 8:59 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| both a sharp and natural G in the same chord hurts the brane. |
Only if you're thinking of music as it appears on paper. Looking at a piano keyboard, they're just two keys to hit. Next to each other or in different octaves. It's just as possible as hitting any other two keys at the same time. Easy as pie.
If I'm going to notate an E7#9 chord, I'd rather not write the #9 as Fx (double sharp), despite the logic that would dictate that. A) Being unusual, it's harder to read, and B) The ear hears it as a minor third (or tenth) creating dissonance with the major third (G#), so G natural makes musical sense.
[Quasi-philosophical rambling deleted.]
Last edited by Brint Hannay on 27 May 2016 5:36 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
|
|
Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
|
Posted 26 May 2016 9:09 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
somebody wrote:
E F# G# A B C# D#
would an E7#9 chord be E G# B C## F##?
it's E G# B D G |
I always thought the 7#9 was considered an altered dominant, i.e.; with either b or # 5 and/ or b or # 9. It's the #9, not the 2 (or b3 in this debate) because it's in the second octave, pushing against the natural 3 in the lower octave. Just as Hendrix fingered it!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 May 2016 12:41 am
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| If I'm going to notate an E7#9 chord, I'd rather not write the #9 as Fx (double sharp), despite the "logic" that would dictate that. |
I'd write it as a G natural anyway, because I hear a flat 10th! But yes, a double sharp would be pedantic. I think double accidentals are appropriate in a melody if they produce elegant spelling, but they can make chords unnecessarily hard to read.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 27 May 2016 4:14 am
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I have often wondered why the 7#9 chord is not called 7b10. To my ear the top note is a blue note.... |
I hear it the same way; hard to hear or visualize the minor third as the ninth of the scale. |
|
|
|
Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
|
Posted 27 May 2016 7:25 am
|
|
...
Last edited by Jamie Mitchell on 27 May 2016 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ben Edmonds
From:
Greenfield, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2016 7:45 am
|
|
Never heard of a flat 10. If it was a flat 10 it wouldn't be called a #9. chords are built in thirds 1 3 5 7 9 11 13
Of course this is why the #9 is indeed f## not g. Of course none of us think of it that way I see it as a g too but it is in fact an f## not a b3rd either otherwise it'd be a E minor-major b10. Pretty confusing and convoluted spelling of a pretty simple concept
Last edited by Ben Edmonds on 27 May 2016 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 27 May 2016 8:11 am
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
|
Posted 27 May 2016 9:27 am
|
|
...
Last edited by Jamie Mitchell on 27 May 2016 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
