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Topic: When not to play |
Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 8:28 am |
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Herb,
You're 100% on all points. I think you're probably a very good producer and band leader. I think one reason overplaying occurs is because, like the original poster, a lot of people don't know when to play and when not to. If people would listen to good recordings, or the older Grand Ole Opry shows, they would hear it. I grew up on Weldon, Jimmy Capps, etc... and it was apparent how disciplined they were. I can't help but wonder if new steel players get wrapped up in steel show music, and instruction of playing everything as an instrumental that they never get exposed to the "rules" of playing with a band and singers. I'm glad to hear that J.D. Is addressing this.
In a related matter..... What about singers that talk through most of your solo with introducing you, comments to the audience, announcements, etc...?
RC |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 9:05 am
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| Rick Campbell wrote: |
In a related matter..... What about singers that talk through most of your solo with introducing you, comments to the audience, announcements, etc...?
RC |
Don't get me started, Rick, seriously. I have to reload after my harmonica barrage.
But I do have first-hand experience with the type of front man you describe. I was asked to play an instrumental. He talked meaningless BS about himself all over my solo, talked all over the lead guitarist's solo, so I just played pads when I came back in and ended it after that. He turned around to me and said "why did you guys end it? I wanted to play one..."
It even embarrassed his girlfriend, and made for a somewhat difficult verbal exchange off-stage.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 9:59 am
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What a great thread on a subject that's dear to my heart. I agree Herb's response is spot on!
A lot has been said, but I'll add my 2 cents, in no particular order:
- A good player will STUDY the subject of when not to play, how much to play in a given song situation, etc. at least as much as they study their playing technique, throughout their entire playing life.
- Steel has a very distinctive sound and it's very easy to over-use.
- If the situation requires a little more support and you must play more, you should generally use longer notes/chords during singing, and licks/figures in the singing gaps. The idea is to not inject any conflicting melodic themes. Be an enhancement, not a distraction.
- If you overlap with a singer, avoid playing the same note being sung. If the singer is singing the third, you might play the 1 or 5.
- Allow room to build. It's often appropriate to not play anything at all during the first verse.
- It is sometimes appropriate to pad with chords during the chorus, to give it a little lift, even if someone else has the fills. But not always.
- Playing rhythm or comping on a steel without sounding weird is difficult, another "lifetime study" topic! The problem is, you're trying to blend in to the song and disappear into the mix, but that's difficult because the steel sounds distinctive. Also it's not a percussive instrument, so it's tough to make a "rhythm" part sound natural. Here are some approaches you might try, depending on the song style. You might use one or more of these in a song:
1) Play chords in a soft rhythmic pattern at low volume, like a rhythm guitar part. You might try partially muting the strings with your palm as you pick, to give it a more percussive feel.
2) Put in chords more sparsely, playing off the song's rhythm, like a pianist does with his left hand during a swing solo in a jazz trio. You could even try some volume pedal gutting, a la Chalker, while doing this.
3) Try some longer chords, maybe using gentle thumb strums, artfully placed, with no attempt at "rhythm" - you're letting the bass and drums provide the "bones" and just providing a little flesh. I like this because you're sounding like a steel and you're not trying to fake another instrument. Buddy Emmons was great at this approach.
4) Pad.
Keep in mind that, whatever approach you take, you often don't need to play as much as you think you do.
- Record your gigs as often as you can, and listen to them soon after the gig, like on the drive home. It's amazing what you can learn this way about what sounds good and what doesn't... it's often the opposite of what you expected!
- In rare situations when you're expected to play along with another soloist, there are things you can do to blend and sound good, such as playing in a different pitch range, playing longer notes under the other player's faster phrases and vice versa, etc. Listen to old Louie Armstrong dixieland and check out how the players weave around each other! I play with a wonderful fiddle player who is very song-sensitive, but often eggs me on to play along during her solos. She's very energetic and we have a terrific, joyful musical rapport. But even in those situations the old adage still applies: When in doubt, lay out.
Finally, to the OP, congratulations for asking the question. That says good things about your musicianship. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 10:07 am
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Wow, Bruce. Excellent post with which I agree 100%. Thanks for a great contribution.
Somewhat belatedly after your suggestions, I received a PM from an inexperienced player asking what a "pad" was.
For the benefit of the Forum as a whole, a "pad" or "padding" is musician jargon for a whole note chord played in the mid to low registers that lays the harmonic bedwork for the soloists or singers to perform over, generally rhythmically neutral. Like holding 10-8-6 for a long time 
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 10:11 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
And my old friend David Naiditch is a stone-cold, world class virtuoso on the chromatic harmonica (a MUCH different animal than the more common diatonic version) who can play fiddle tunes, bluegrass, gypsy jazz, be-bop, western swing, et al. on that thing. Amazing musician, really. But players of his caliber usually don't hang around waiting to sit in. If he's not asked to come onstage, it's generally because the band isn't up to his level of musicianship.
Check him out: https://www.youtube.com/user/DNaiditch |
I love listening to a good guy on the chromatic harp. My love of classic radio comedy brought me to Max Geldray, who provided the first musical interlude on the Goon Show (Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe)
And your friend David is a Badass
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 22 Feb 2016 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 10:13 am
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Toots Thielemans, Stevie Wonder???
Padding. Never heard the expression, although I do it all the time. After 50 years of playing and performing I've learned another term! Now if you said "drop 5" I'd know what you meant 
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Bob Moore
From:
N. Rose, New York
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 11:11 am
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| Could someone give the necessary route to find "a talk with the Masters" as recommended. All I get are Golf videos of Tiger W. I tried different ways and can not find it. Thanks Bob M |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 11:45 am
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| Rick Campbell wrote: |
Herb,
In a related matter..... What about singers that talk through most of your solo with introducing you, comments to the audience, announcements, etc...?
RC |
That's one of my biggest pet peeves for the singer to talk during my solo or my kick off. It usually makes me mess up because when they do it, they want to scream over the mike and I can't hear what I'm doing.
Another one is when I'm doing an instrumental of a tune and the singer starts singing, no matter if it's their key or not, they just sing right along with you.
I play with several guys here in town that think they have to play every note the singer is singing or you are playing, right along with you. I've tried every subtle approach I can think of to get them to wait their turn but they just don't understand. One night, I just walked over and unplugged the guitar chord in the amp and told him when it came his turn, he could plug it back in. He still didn't get it, LOL.
I'm not a pro but I do pride myself in knowing when to play and when not to play and many times just sit with my arms crossed or just pad chords while another instrument is playing. My regular band also knows when to play and when not to and we always have a fun night.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 1:57 pm
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| Rick Campbell wrote: |
Herb,
You're 100% on all points. I think you're probably a very good producer and band leader. I think one reason overplaying occurs is because, like the original poster, a lot of people don't know when to play and when not to. If people would listen to good recordings, or the older Grand Ole Opry shows, they would hear it. I grew up on Weldon, Jimmy Capps, etc... and it was apparent how disciplined they were. I can't help but wonder if new steel players get wrapped up in steel show music, and instruction of playing everything as an instrumental that they never get exposed to the "rules" of playing with a band and singers. I'm glad to hear that J.D. Is addressing this.
In a related matter..... What about singers that talk through most of your solo with introducing you, comments to the audience, announcements, etc...?
RC |
I might add, there's nothing wrong with playing instrumentals, and beginning players have to learn to play the songs. It's a great way for instruction, but sooner or later the player has to understand that because they can play a song, doesn't mean it's okay to play on top of the singer. The player has to get into the song and feel it, then he can play the fills. I think working with a good band is the fastest way for a player to learn this. I also think some don't get the chance to learn this because they won't stop playing long enough to see what's going on around them. It's not just steel players, other lead instrument players do the same thing. Fiddle players that "saw" all the time are a major annoyance.
RC |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 4:21 pm
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| I generally play less the more instruments there are in the band. What I play in a duo might be considered overplaying in a band. It also nice to play nothing for the sake of interesting dynamics. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2016 10:22 pm
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My favorite bit of advice about playing well with other people was an anecdote in a SGF thread several years ago that I have quoted to several lead guitar players and fiddlers(and constantly remind myself of)… 
It was in a thread titled something like “What is the best musical advice you’ve ever been given?â€.
As I recall, the posting came from a steel guitarist who, at his first recording session in Nashville, played his butt off on the first take, and was feeling pretty good about all of the hot licks he had played.
The producer then called a break, pulled him aside and said, “See the singer over there? When her mouth is open—YOU DON’T PLAY!â€
(I have searched for this posting several times unsuccessfully. If any of you can find it, please let me know--I’d like to give credit where it is due.)
- Dave |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2016 6:33 am
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Ha, that sounds familiar, Dave, I think I read that long ago too.
Equally frustrating is a player who maybe doesn't play over the singer, but plays ALL of the fills. My preference leans toward an uncluttered soundscape, especially on country tunes. When I gig with someone like that, I'll just play very little and let him spew, rather than trying to play over it. I've had whole songs go by when the busy player hasn't even noticed that I haven't played at all. It takes the fun out of playing and feels more like waiting to cross a busy street. I also don't like having to muscle in with a lick to gain some space. (I've known some players who expect that kind of dynamic.)
On the subject of harmonica players, here's one that defies the stereotype: Howard Levy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSn17Uzr85M
(Playing starts at 4:00) |
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Roger Kelly
From:
Bristol,Tennessee
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Posted 23 Feb 2016 10:19 am
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There's nothing I can add to those who have posted. They have given you some good advice. It has been said a picture is worth a thousand words. This video then should be worth at least fifteen hundred words, I'd say. All in all, if you lay out like Buddy and Steve in this video, you will be doing good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK_qrg4Jz20 |
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