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Topic: 2nd string options? |
Peter den Hartogh
From:
Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 2:37 am |
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If I were to separate the second string half stop and whole stop, and connect them to existing pedals or levers, which note-combination would be the best suitable?
For instance...if you disconnect the whole note drop, it would be the best to connect it to the pedal or lever that gives you note X when activated.
So what are the best note-combinations for the whole note and the half note drop?
And which stop is best to keep where it is now? Half or whole?
There are split-screws on this guitar. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 9:06 am
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I'm not sure a tunable split screw will do anything for ya. They are useful for combining a raise and a lower of different magnitudes on the same string.
I hear ya though on wanting to have the half step and whole step lower on string two on different mechanisms.
I use a half step lower there to to get a dominent 7th. I'll even use it during a relatively fast single note passage. I find I overshoot under that circumstance if I have it as feel stop on the way down to the full step lower. In fact I've disabled the full step lower mechanism feel stop for that reason. I found I didn't use the whole step change enough to warrant the comprimise.
The full step lower on string two gives you a 6th note just like pedal one does on string 5 so it's a bit redundant anyway.
I'll bet there's some special lick folks use it for.
Anybody?
I'm sorry I have no clue where I'd move the full stop not knowing what it's used with, but I know I'd want to retain the half stop on the current right going right lever on my U12 because this also raises string 9 to a 7th, (U12 E9 mode). |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 9:41 am
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what is note x?
dropping 2 a half and a whole is a traditional staple
of just one lever. it allows for many necessary
lines to be played. i would leave it intact. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 11:15 am
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Zane King uses sequential string order, but tunes his 4th string (equivalent to 2nd string in Nashville tuning) to C#, raising to D on the A pedal and to D# on a lever.
Every option will have gains and losses, so you won't find a concensus. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 12:26 pm
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For whatever it's worth, I tune my 2nd string to C#, and raise it to D and D# on 2 separate knee levers.
Weldon Myrick also tuned the string to C#, as does B.J. Cole.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 12:46 pm
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Peter's apparent dislike of half-stops he shares with a certain number of forum members who I'm sure will chime in with suggestions.
Chris speaks with the voice of tradition. If you lower D# to D to give the dominant 7th, the music may well urge you to carry on down and resolve it by hitting the B pedal. The C# thus employed is in no way redundant. It is the same musically as the D->C# change on string 9 which is usually on the same lever and makes a good feel stop. If you're overshooting you need a stronger spring somewhere.
Tuning string 2 to C# is good on a universal. I have the D on P8 and D# on the lever that raises string 9 B->D. That way when you're in B6 mode it's sitting there ready like the top string D on C6.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 4:00 pm
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Hey Mike, nice to see your name in the thread.
For string 2,
The D is great for bluesy half steps in AB position. (Ala James Burton)
The C# gives you bending unisons in AB(3rd degree with str 5) and up and down the scale with your bar.
If you are going to separate, a KL for D is good. The C# is better on a KL but would work as well on a pedal next to A, so you can rock the pedals together.
My 2 cents.
J |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 6:44 pm
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John Hughey had his 2nd string lower on 2 knees. I've been thinking about putting mine on 2 knee levers.
Tony |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 6:44 pm
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John Hughey had his 2nd string lower on 2 knees. I've been thinking about putting mine on 2 knee levers.
Tony |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 8:03 pm
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Some, notably Crawford and Terry Bethel, tune to D, with one knee raising to D# and another lowering to C#.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2016 6:01 pm
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On E9 I keep it on one lever with the feel stop for the D.
On Uni, I have D on one lever and C# on another.... for B6 reasons and the fact that I raise 9 to D on the same lever that lowers 2 to D. You cant get a good feel stop with that setup.
I'm considering the 2 lever setup on E9 as well. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Jan 2016 6:17 pm
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One of the reasons I have the changes on different levers is that when I tuned the string to D# I could never play the half stop in tune.
Tuning the string to C# and raising it, works better for what I'm doing. But that's a whole other issue than the question of a half stop vs 2 separate knee levers.
Another whole other issue is, if you use 2 different knee levers, you're sort of wasting one. How do you replace it? I use the wrist lever.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Peter den Hartogh
From:
Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted 26 Jan 2016 4:44 am
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These are wonderful suggestions, guys.Thank you so much.
I need to consider each of those and experiment. I was also considering pedal zero with raises on 1 and 2, and combine it with RKR on string 2 using a split screw. Pedal zero is right next to pedal A.
When all fails, I have to follow chris's advice.  |
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David Martin
From:
Kingsport, TN 37660 USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2016 5:00 pm
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I lower my 2nd string D#-C# and 9th D-C# on RKL.
I lower my 2nd string D#-D and raise 7th F#-G# on
LKL(outside) Emmons setup.
_________________
SHO-BUD SUPER PRO D10(8+10)
EMMONS LL-III D10(9+9)
Too many Amps |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2016 9:39 pm
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I have absolutely no idea what this post is about.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 31 Jan 2016 11:20 pm second string lowers
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Here is another idea to think about, Peter.
You could put the whole step lower on the E lower lever; this is often done on U12 setups,(on RKR in my case). The down side is it makes that lever stiffer. The up side is that now, one lever puts your top eight strings into a pentatonic scale.
You could leave the half step lower with the string nine half step lower.(Many U12 players pull strings 2 and 9 to D on the same lever, in my case, LKL).
Good luck in your search for the best setup for your needs.
Chris
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 1 Feb 2016 2:58 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
i would leave it intact. |
I concur. I say this because I just installed it yesterday on my all pull w/ square shafts and it's nigh perfect.
The D9 lower to C# makes such a good feel stop for the D#2 lower that it'd be silly to do it any other way.
I could even begin to embrace the dominant seventh with such a useful change, as both strings end up on C#. |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 1 Feb 2016 4:41 am
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For me I tune the second string to C# and raise to D and Eb with a half stop knee lever.
If I were to separate the changes I would tune the string to D and then raise with one knee and lower with another.
Robert |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 11:37 am
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I come from the Crawford camp, tune to D and raise and lower a half on two different levers, with a third that drops it to C...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 12:15 pm
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Rich U. said:
| Quote: |
| I have absolutely no idea what this post is about. |
Really? Both the guitars in your signature probably have this half stop on string 2. When you hit the lever, it will go to D and you will feel a resistance, then it will continue to C#. There are different ways to get that half stop (feel stop) to work on the lever. The one I see the most often is timing a lower on string 9, to start pulling when string 2 is at D. This will create the resistance needed. Some guitars have a physical part under the guitar that will do this. Carter has a cutout in the end plate where they put what looks like the lower part of the finger where you run a rod through it and attach it to the knee lever that lowers string 2. When that extra rod starts to pull that 11th string finger, you will feel the resistance halfway, and it's tunable. I found it not enough resistance, and cut a little off the spring to add more resistance. Works great. That could work with lowering the 9th string. I was never happy with that method of creating the half stop.
Sorry for the text book I wrote above. Hopefully this will help any newer players understand that half stop. newer players
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 20 Mar 2016 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David Martin
From:
Kingsport, TN 37660 USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 12:51 pm
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Richard...both my steels do have the half stop on the 2nd string but I don't prefer it. I use the separate lever when I want an absolute true D. My Emmons is set up using the same pull rod with two knee levers--one for the C# drop and one for the D drop. My Sho-Bud has a separate pull rod for the D drop. My Emmons was set up that way when I got it from John Hughey.
_________________
SHO-BUD SUPER PRO D10(8+10)
EMMONS LL-III D10(9+9)
Too many Amps |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 1:57 pm
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OOPS! David. I put the wrong text in the quote. I'll change it. I'm embarassed. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 2:05 pm
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I tried the separate knees for the C# and D. I had a second LKL, and I tried the C# there and didn't like it. I left the lower to D on 2 on the original location on RKL. Maybe putting the D on the second LKL and C# on the RKL would have worked. I'll put my 2nd LKL back on and see. I would prefer them on separate levers.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 20 Mar 2016 3:09 pm
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| i think the best half-stops are individual units for the specific stop. a rod that goes through a spring that is adjustable for tension and a roller nut that adjusts the distance. that way you can adjust exactly what you need. all my half-stops are like that. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Mar 2016 12:52 am
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well, seeing each of my Steels has only 4 knee levers ( by choice) I'm not going to give up one lever to the full tone drop. I would be giving up pulls that I use all the time.
All 3 have "solid feel" stops at the half stop. And yeh, I use the 1/2 to full tone drop often , it just takes some time to work the feel into your bag of tricks. It's a character builder ! 
The Emmons adjustable spring loaded half stop design is very accurate with a reasonable feel. When I played Carters I added a spring loaded helper stop fashioned after the Emmons stop. The Sho Bud also has a 2nd string stop gizmo...
But sure, if you have a Crawford Cluster many other options are there in front of you..or rather underneath you...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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