Help with binding tuning rod

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

I have an MSA M3. After some attempted adjustments I find that the tuning rod on my knee lever that tunes the 6th string lower from G# to F# is binding so badly that I can't rotate it in either direction. Rod moves in and out with the pedal, the split is correctly tuned, and the 1st string raise on the same pedal is normal in function.

I'm a mechanical neophyte. Any idea how to approach freeing this tuning rod so it rotates and tunes once again?
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Shine the light on the nylon nut. If the rod isn't binding up on the end (does the rod go farther into the nut than the ones around it) , I'd try brute force toto remove the nylon and swap with one on another rod. A nylon nut seized to the rod just makes no sense.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

why turn it in the first place if it doesn't need it?
i first suspected 'overtuned' but you say it's working fine.
i would expect a millenium to be one of the finest mechanical steels available. i wouldn't think it would get messed up all by itself.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

It had always been a bit stiff, and near the end of its adjustment. And this particular guitar hadn't gotten a factory setup.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

I finally determined that the tuning rod is simply about 3/8" too long to keep it within the threaded portion of the nylon tuner.

When it said it "works" fine I mean I can muscle it into tune with great effort. Of course I still need to fine tune all the time and with the rod jammed passed the threaded portion of the nylon it took all the strength I could muster to turn it the smallest amount.

M3 is a fine machine. This one was previously owned by David Wright and set up by Johnny Cox. I've just been playing the hell out of it for a few years and it needs some TLC and adjustment that I'm incompetent to do, and unfortunately I'm hundreds and hundreds of miles from expert assistance except for the great help I've gotten from Lane Gray in isolating my issues.
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

that must be the hotrod steel, then.
i love that thing!

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

That's the one!

_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

You need to loosen the pull-rod and move it in some. First, back off the tuner about 10 turns. Then, there's an allen setscrew in the end of the silver pin on the pulling finger. Loosen it, and move the rod in. Then re-tighten it, and that should allow you to back off the nylon tuner and re-tune the guitar. Cool

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

The pull rod with the nylon tuner in question is a 6th string lower on a LKR with a reversing mechanism. The rod terminates with a 90 degree bend in a bell crank. I don't see anyway to reposition it without shortening it. I tried by shortening the pull from the reversing mechanism (allen as you mentioned) but I could only achieve a very tiny change and I need 3/8" to 1/2" to fall within the threaded range of the nylon nut.

Of course there is a high probability I have totally misunderstood your instructions Donny!

I think I'll go play my Zumsteel instead!
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

evidently donny is mistaken about how the pull rods attach to your bellcranks.
it's a little mysterious how this change in length could have occurred, however.

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

Chris

It was always on the verge of untunable. I think it was just an error made when it was rerodded after I bought it from David Wright. It became a greater problem when it was reassembled after recently taking the reverse changer apart to try to scavenge the parts to turn it into an LKL2 instead of LKR. (On David's setup the LKR was so far to the right that it was nearly unusable in my copedent in conjunction with depressing the A-B pedals)
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i remember noticing david had that wide spread in the levers.
it's a great steel. hopefully you can get it sorted out.

Tim Russell · From: Pennsylvania, USA

From your description, the rod is too long then?

Sounds like a simple fix, really. If you don't have the tools, a machine shop could cut more threads on the rod, then cut the excess threads off that are extending through the nylon nut too far.

I suppose another option would be to add a small nylon spacer ahead of the nylon tuning nut, allowing it to be better positioned on the threaded portion of the rod.

Not sure without actually seeing it, but it seems like this would work. My Sierra is set up that way - I could add spacers there if needed.
_________________
Sierra Crown D-10

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

That can result in the rod sticking out the window.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

James Jacoby · From: Ohio, USA

Maybe it would be a good idea, to try the spacer, first, and see if it remedies your tuning problem, before threading or cutting on the rod. I did that, once, on a Sierra, I had. I used misc. lengths of small copper tubing, for a spacer. Cheap, and easy to cut with a tubing cutter. -Jake-

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bob, my Millennium (the first model) evidently uses a different type of pulling-finger/pull-rod setup. If yours has the bent-end rods, then the (short) spacer idea at the changer should work, as long as it doesn't hang up on the endplate. It does seem odd that the previous owner(s) didn't have a problem, so first I'd check to make sure the guitar isn't over-tuned. It could be something that simple that's causing your problem. Smile

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bob, I think I can come over Monday and bring a spacer.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

Donny- previous owner didn't have a problem because previous owner had a drastically different copedent.

Moot point now anyway- my baby is going back to MSA for a tune up and to clear up a few other minor issues. With Kyle's TLC I'm sure it will be fabulous when it comes home!!!!!
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Does your steel have the double sided Bell crank with the brass rod bushing and the rod going in the slot in the middle of the Bell Crank? If it does look at both ends of the brass rod bushing. You will see on one side there is a Allen Screw. Unscrew the nylon tuning nut till it is even with the end of the shaft. Then loosen the allen screw on the rod bushing on the bell crank for that rod and slide it up till the nylon nut is against the changer finger. Then tighten the allen screw. sound like the rod has slipped or was not slid far enough through the brass bushing. Good Luck in your problem.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bobby, that does indeed describe his system, but I'm having difficulty picturing what you describe. He's coming over tomorrow to take advantage of my 75% FedEx discount to ship it to Kyle and Mitchell. I'll examine it then.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic