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Topic: composite guitars |
Bill R. Baker
From:
Clinton, MS USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 3:03 pm |
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I am reading in our daily paper that Composite
Acoustics, a division of Peavey Electronics has
announced the acquisition of a Plek Pro machine to aid
in the production of its premium carbon fiber acoustic
guitars manufactured in Meridian.
Now what is a carbon fiber guitar? Who out there
has tried one? Is it better than a solid wood
guitar? Fill us in.
Thanks, Bill |
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DG Whitley
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 3:23 pm
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As you may recall, MSA use to sell a type of carbon fiber pedal steel guitar called a "Millennium", probably this will be along the same type of production with the normal wood parts being replaced by the carbon fiber.
My thought is that acoustic guitars are expensive enough, why add more expense without necessarily increasing quality? I have to question stuff like this, seems to be more of a fad than good design.
My 2 cents, YMMV. |
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Larry Carlson
From:
My Computer
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 3:56 pm
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It's all personal taste.
Some will hate them, some will love them.
I went through that with my Ovations so I am used to it.
I love my Ovations by the way.
http://www.rainsong.com/
_________________
I have stuff.
I try to make music with it.
Sometimes it works.
Sometimes it doesn't.
But I keep on trying. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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DG Whitley
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 4:06 pm
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What I heard from the website Mark provided definitely would not make me run out and buy one. I did not hear anything that would lead me to believe it any better than the old standard wood built guitars. Manufacturers are always looking for a niche to sell their products with a moniker of being new and improved. I'm not seeing that here.
If I'm going to spend north of $3,000 for an acoustic guitar, I'll buy a Martin.
If you like to be faddish and different, then by all means, buy one of those.
My 2 cents, YMMV. |
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 11:24 am
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yea its not about being "faddish and different" these guitars are great tools.
I travel a LOT to a lot of different climates and like to take a guitar, I also like to have a guitar with me when I'm out and about in summertime and come upon a jam, or not have to worry about leaving my guitar in the 100 degree weather to go into the grocery store for 30 minutes.
I have a Rainsong acoustic and I LOVE it. Of course if I had to choose between my Rainsong and my gibson and could only have one I would take the Gibson every time.. I don't think graphite or carbon fiber sound "better" than a wood guitar.. I still prefer the tone of wood but I do really like the sound of the graphite. It is even, the guitar plays like a dream, I can take it to the tropics and I KNOW it is going to be playable when I get there... that is the reason that I have one...
It is inspiring to play, and it is a TANK that I don't have to worry about getting messed up with weather... I have had too many guitars go to hell during a trip and I just go tired of it. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 2:03 pm
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a friend of mine had a rainsong and it sounded
really good! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 2:15 pm
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There was a kickstarter campaign a while back for a carbon fiber backpacker guitar, what they called an "adventure guitar." The sound hole was offset from the strings so you could pack things inside it when traveling. The most memorable part of the promo video is when the guys dips the guitar into the lake to rinse it off: https://youtu.be/WI_jbK9WCCk?t=74
I think Blackbird makes a compact model like this too
Edit: there is actually a link that shows up on the youtube page for the Blackbird demo video too |
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Ian McWee
From:
Worcestershire, UK
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 4:52 am
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| DG Whitley wrote: |
My thought is that acoustic guitars are expensive enough, why add more expense without necessarily increasing quality? I have to question stuff like this, seems to be more of a fad than good design.
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The main reason is for consistency of sound. Wood guitars sound different, some good, some not so good, even when they're identical models. With CFC or other composites, you can exactly control the consistency, and that's the first step to improvments in the sound.
I think acoustic guitars are actually a bargain, just like pedal steels. You don't pay a lot for all the time that goes into making them. It's the solid-bodied electric guitars that are way over-priced, since they're far easier and cheaper to make. |
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Don Griffiths
From:
Steelville, MO
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 11:59 am
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Carbon fiber, also called graphite by some, has very good strength to weight ratio. This is a desirable quality in building guitars. It is very shape-able and mold-able although difficult to work and change once the resin is set. It responds less to temperature changes due to it's low coefficient of thermal expansion. In theory re-tuning shouldn't be neccessary even in extreme temp.changes. Think of high tech fiberglass or "advanced composite". The fibers are derived from carbon pitch,or the sledge left in the bottom of the oil refining process. Instruments are a great way to put that to use as far as I'm concerned. As mentioned above it is very consistent in properties from one part to the next and also durable.Much better chance of surviving an 18 foot drop from a 747 cargo pit.
I don't think it has great tone qualities as a material. If you tink a solid carbon fiber rod with a hammer you get a dull thud unlike a piece of ebony or rosewood with good tonal qualities that produce a nice ring.As a stand alone tone material it doesn't have that ring that tickles my ear But like paper-mache it can be shaped into a nice acoustic box or instrument to produce the tonal qualities desired. Both the Parker Fly and the Rainsong guitars I've had the privilege of playing were quite resonant. Brilliant as described by someone above is accurate. Even the bass notes are quite bright. They both resonated as well or better than some equal value wood guitars.Paul Reed Smith uses it for truss rods and nuts. This what I like it for.
While working in an Airline's advanced composite shop I came to despise working with carbon fiber because of the toxicity of the resin and dust though I'm sure they've improved some.No connection to the blood cancer they are sure though. As for anything fastened to aircraft parts titanium is used for it's corrosion resistance. This could push the price up. The spar in the tail of the few different Airbus Airliners that have had them fall off because of pilot error Are made of Carbon Fiber. 
Some of the bicycles they are making out of Carbon Fiber nowadays are incredible, though even after working with it I chose titanium over that for a bike frame because of the materials liveliness.
As for cost it should be priced like wood guitars in terms of quality of workmanship and level of quality control. How does it sound? Value is based much on name and Research & Development ( think trial and error). I'm sure they will eventually be building lower quality at a fraction of the price in china. All parts being equal I would think cost of material would be relative to AA grade wood.
Hah, finally a topic in the steel guitar forum that my opinion may be worth anything.
Sheesh, I've read to many trade magazines.
_________________
Shobud Pro1,BMI U12, Santa Cruz F, PRS Standard, Fender Twin Reverb, ‘53 000-28 |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 2:38 pm
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Not a "fad" - if one thinks that it is then apparently carbon fiber guitars just haven't crossed their radar.
Also not claiming to be "better" than wood guitars. The material is unaffected by all the things that can sometimes be problematic with a typical wooden guitar. You could have an evening jam out in your backyard, forget to bring the carbon fiber guitar in before going to bed and the instrument could be pounded by an overnight rain storm with no ill effects the next day.
It might even still be in tune when you remember that you left it out there and go to retrieve it.
You can leave it in its case in the trunk of your car on a hot day and not have to worry about it.
One of the finest bluegrass guitar pickers in the business is Tim Stafford of Blue Highway who is nominated for the 2015 Guitar Player of the Year, the winner will be revealed at the annual event in Raleigh at the end of September put on by The International Bluegrass Music Association.
Tim has plenty of nice guitars. Vintage Martins and modern high end boutique luthier built instruments.
His typical road guitar is a carbon fiber job from Composite Acoustics (CA). I have seen Blue Highway play about 10 times over maybe the past 14 years, and the vast majority of the time Tim has played the CA, and I have never once thought, "gee - that guitar just isn't quite cutting it."
I never even think about it not being a wooden guitar once the music begins at a Blue Highway show. It sounds just fine.
_________________
Mark |
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Bill R. Baker
From:
Clinton, MS USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2015 9:55 am thanks
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excellent responses here! thanks to all.
Bil |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 22 Aug 2015 3:22 am
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I will no doubt get some grief for saying this, but the body of an acoustic guitar is much more important to the sound produced than the body of a pedal steel. Many materials can make a pleasing instrument. However, I think most people chose a carbon guitar at least in part for its stability and durability.
The same may be true in the pedal steel world - I live in the tropics - in the Philippines a couple of years ago, and now in the Caribbean. I've had problems with maple/laminate guitars with the wood expanding in the hot, damp climate causing a thin gap where the laminates meet at the corners. it does not affect tone or structural integrity. It does affect tuning, although wood expands and shrinks more across the grain than with it. The problems encountered by an acoustic guitar in this climate are far greater than those of a pedal steel guitar - strong incentive to go carbon, as my friend who lives on his trimaran has done.
I have been asked why this is not a problem in Florida - the answer is pretty simple: in the Philippines, and here in the Virgin Islands, few use air conditioning as our temps are hot, but not sweltering. Most homes are very open to the outside climate. In FL most people use AC, which also incorporates some dehumdification, so it is a much more controlled environment.
I have decided that a carbon pedal steel makes the most sense for me since I live in the tropics, and most of the year on my sailboat. So I recently acquired an MSA Millennium and will be selling my other pedal steels (they will be kept in a humidity-controlled environment for a period to resolve any issues due to heat/humidity).
There are a few other advantages for carbon fiber pedal steels - most obvious being the significantly lighter weight.
(My new steel enjoying the view where I am house-sitting for the summer months)
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Aug 2015 3:14 pm
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| Don Griffiths wrote: |
| Carbon fiber, also called graphite by some, has very good strength to weight ratio. This is a desirable quality in building guitars. It is very shape-able and mold-able although difficult to work and change once the resin is set. It responds less to temperature changes due to it's low coefficient of thermal expansion. In theory re-tuning shouldn't be neccessary even in extreme temp.changes. |
Well, with the strings still being steel, they would still be affected by temperature.
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| I don't think it has great tone qualities as a material. If you tink a solid carbon fiber rod with a hammer you get a dull thud unlike a piece of ebony or rosewood with good tonal qualities that produce a nice ring. |
That's likely true if you're making it for strength, as in aircraft parts, golf clubs, or fishing rods. But if you're trying to make it sound like wood, I'd bet you can - as it's an "engineered material". Whatever qualities you desire, strength, surface hardness, density, grain structure, etc. can be designed right into the material. I have no doubt it can be made to "sound" just like a piece of wood, if that's what you're trying to do.
Here's what the (admittedly young) technology sounds like when used on a violin:
(Pretty musical, IMHO.)
http://elixirviolins.com/ |
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Former Member
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Posted 27 Aug 2015 6:25 am
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| The difference with blackbird guitars is the hollow neck. Gives an interesting "echo" to the tone. I play mine with flatwound chromes which kills off some of the brightness and sounds like a high end jazz guitar. |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2015 1:59 pm Carbon Guitars
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| For those pro musicians who travel, or for those musicians that live in humid climates, etc., the most important point is that they do not warp, expand or contract. For a touring musician this means alot for a different city every night. Try a Composite Acoustic guitar at your local AC dealer. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 3 Sep 2015 2:27 pm Re: Carbon Guitars
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| Mike Brown wrote: |
| For those pro musicians who travel, or for those musicians that live in humid climates, etc., the most important point is that they do not warp, expand or contract. For a touring musician this means alot for a different city every night. Try a Composite Acoustic guitar at your local AC dealer. |
Thanks Mike - and for those not in the know, Peavey purchased Composite Acoustics several years ago. 
Sidebar: I worked for a premium wine broker for several years here in NorCal wine country, and one of my colleagues had the founder of CA as a good wine client, but I think at one point he ran into some financial issues and stopped buying the high end stuff, and about five years ago Peavey purchased the company.
_________________
Mark |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 3 Sep 2015 3:54 pm
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
I have decided that a carbon pedal steel makes the most sense for me since I live in the tropics, and most of the year on my sailboat. So I recently acquired an MSA Millennium |
i don't really get how living on a sailboat and playing electric pedalsteel go together. ? do you go honky tonkin when you hit land? |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2015 5:08 am CA guitars
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| Interesting............... |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 5 Nov 2015 12:25 am
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| Damir Besic wrote: |
| I wouldn't trade my $60 Old Hickory acoustic for this Batman guitar... |
Have you played one actually? They sound great. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 5 Nov 2015 12:57 am
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never played one, but so far what I heard, they sound like $100 guitars, harsh and thin... there is no way, IMHO, that those guitars are worth $3,000.00 , of course, thats just my opinion ...
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 5 Nov 2015 8:43 am
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| Well there are a few companies making them and different design sound different. I would actually play them before you knock them |
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2015 8:56 am CA Guitars
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| Mr. Bill Baker, you are about 90 miles from Meridian. When you get a chance, come on over and try a CA guitar out. |
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