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Topic: Protools recording steel guitar |
John Bumbarger
From:
Houtzdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 5:03 am |
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| When recording steel guitar , what is the best way to connect to Protools ? Should I go direct from amp or Mic it. I have the Mbox |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 11:22 am
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Probably a reasonable answer is to experiment and see what gives you the best tone and feel, or the recorded sound you most prefer.
The direct output from your amp may sound good or lame, depending on the amp and implementation of the interface… I've heard some "direct outs" that sound fabulous recorded, others that were dry and sterile sounding. A good mic and mic preamp can make a world of difference, I don't have any experience with the pres in the Mbox.
Over the years I have miced many amps, and gone direct through various preamps, direct boxes, etc. and each has a sound that might be useable in some context, while not preferable in another. (I've done hundreds of recording sessions using just preamps, some favorites being the Line 6 Pro racks, Roland GP 100, Peavey ProFex II and Transtube Fex.) Really depends on the final sound you're going for! Best of luck in the pursuit.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 12:04 pm
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| Avid Eleven Rack is designed to integrate with Pro Tools. You record direct with your choice of amp/speaker model but it also records the plain sound direct from your guitar, so you can go back later and change amp and speaker and mic etc. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 12:51 pm
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I don't use ProTools, and am no authority. I have just done some amount of recording.
I run a direct out from the guitar's pickup, a line out from the amp, and a mic on the amp.
Which gets mixed is decided at mix time. IMO, you have to account for delay between signals to avoid phase cancellation if you use more than one. Zoom in on the three tracks and do your best at aligning them - the direct pickup signal will be "ahead" of the mic signal by a few samples. If you use a modelling amp, the delay will be more.
This can be a time waster - once you start mixing, pick a signal or combination of signals and move on. If you have trouble making these decisions at mix time, make them at tracking - just always use the direct or mic signal. The direct pickup signal will have no room tone. Maybe that's good, maybe it's bad.
For steel, the pickup, line out and mic signals aren't all that different. For six string, they are more so. If I were recording a live gig, the amp mic signal wold be more different than playing quietly in the studio.
And just to make it all even more confusing  there is a free VST plugin called "FuncShaper" that can wake up direct pickup tracks in a mix. It adds various amounts of distortion. It's especially useful for electric bass. The most useful subsettings of FuncShaper include "Tube", "Chebychev" and the tanh() saturation ones. Tube is mildest, Chebyshev can add even harmonics and the tanh() saturation ones will add odd harmonics. They go from wild to mild; full-on Chebyshev sounds like something's broken - a little goes a long way. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 12:56 pm
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Mark has the best answer. Try both and see what you like best. It has no relation to the DAW or even the interface, although the quality of the interface can affect whatever signal is input. Its the signal that is fed to the interface, whether direct, direct though an effects unit or miked.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 4 Jan 2015 4:52 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| Mark has the best answer. Try both and see what you like best. It has no relation to the DAW or even the interface, although the quality of the interface can affect whatever signal is input. Its the signal that is fed to the interface, whether direct, direct though an effects unit or miked. |
well stated, it has nothing to do with the DAW, ( Pro Tools etc),at the end of the chain they are all the same.
If you have a preamp and mic, try it, if you don't ,just plug into the preamp and go direct.
IF all you own is a small $49 preamp, just use it, don't look back. Get your levels set as clean as you can ahead of the DAW ( Pro Tools) and go for it. For Pro Tools, the input meter starts to go YELLOW when the input signal starts to get hot, a tad of yellow is fine , more than that you will get saturation which is digital distortion. Keep your preamp levels hi to obtain the best S/N as well.
experiment, take notes..also keep in mind your Steel V-Pedal levels.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2015 8:02 am
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That price includes pro Tools, which he already has, so he can just buy the box for about $355 new on Ebay.
| Barry Blackwood wrote: |
| Under 'cons' I would list no specific steel guitar amp models but you could probably find something suitable with a little tweaking. |
Yes, many of the Eleven Rack amp models sound good on steel. It's the first amp modeler that I like for steel. But I haven't tried Kemper or Fractal Audio.
| Tony Prior wrote: |
| IF all you own is a small $49 preamp, just use it, don't look back. s. |
I agree. |
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John Bumbarger
From:
Houtzdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 5:26 pm
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| Thanks for all the input. I got the protools course 101 Introduction to Protools which takes you step by step into making a recording using your guitar or Midi keyboard. I guess I'll start through the chapters and see how things work out. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 Jan 2015 2:11 am
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John just keep in mind, the process for recording , regardless of which recorder you use , is the same.
Guitar/voice etc.. > some sort of input preamp > recorder
Learning software is obviously important but learning the entire process is vital.
The primary difference between standalone workstations ( Tascam, Boss etc ) is they have built in preamps, the DAW ( software) requires an external preamp , be it PCI card, USB or Firewire.
The input preamp wants to send as much clean signal from your instrument as possible to the DAW, thats what you will see on the PRO Tools input level meter. Too much signal you will have nasty distortion, too little signal will result in poor signal to noise.
If you have no recording experience, sometimes it is recommended to acquire an inexpensive 4 track workstation to work out the process and get some exposure.
good luck
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2015 4:06 am
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If you have the better plug-ins just go direct and play as accurately as you can with a line in straight from the guitar then add & tweak the effects you like.
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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John Bumbarger
From:
Houtzdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2015 5:31 am
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| Not to be dumb here, should I go directly from the guitar to the input ( Mbox or Avid Eleven Rack) bypassing the volume pedal and all effects ? I have used the Tascam DP-02 recording studio, but wanted more flexibility. I guess you are saying get a clean signal and add reverb or whatever effects you what after the clean signal is recorded with Protools. |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2015 5:40 am
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I would go thru the volume pedal dry (no effects) and go thru your interface and record it in stereo (it will be a stereo wav with L&R being the same) so you can apply stereo effects with your Protools plugins. This will allow you to get the most out of delays and reverbs friend. I've done it a lot and it works well.
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2015 8:22 am
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| John Bumbarger wrote: |
| should I go directly from the guitar to the input ( Mbox or Avid Eleven Rack) bypassing the volume pedal and all effects ? |
With Eleven Rack, no, you should go straight from your guitar (with a short cable) into the Eleven Rack. That way you take advantage of the variable impedance choices at the Eleven Rack input. Volume control is just one of the many devices in the chain; you can use a cheap controller pedal like Yamaha FC-4. If you prefer, you could use an expensive volume pedal like steel players usually do, and put it in the efx loop of the Eleven Rack.
With Mbox, you should go thru your favorite pre-amp first, then volume pedal, then Mbox. Other efx such as reverb, delay, chorus, are all in the computer. You don't want to record those since it is better to have total control over them later. If you don't have a nice steel pre-amp, you can just plug right into the Mbox. I didn't think that would work well, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that I could get a good sound that way by using low end (free) VST amp models. |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 8 Jan 2015 11:50 am
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Is this the new Avid MBox, or the older Digi MBox. Those old MBoxes were pretty funky. The Avid ones are remarkably better.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2015 2:17 pm
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I still think the best way to record steel into any DAW is the line out of amp if it's clean. My LTD, Nashville 112 and Quilter work great this way. I've tried everything under the sun, mike's, direct, condenser mikes, you name it. Line-out still sounds better to my ears than any other method. I use a little touch of amp reverb and add to it if more needed on recording. The steel direct to DAW just didn't work at all for me. Also,I like to be able to hear my amp and music over speakers in my home studio and not have to worry about headphones. This may not work in a professional studio but they have never got my mix right where I could hear everything going on. JMO
This was done line out of an LTD with nothing else done on mixer except a touch more reverb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpdxzFXFLHY
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 20 Jan 2015 4:11 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| The steel direct to DAW just didn't work at all for me. Also,I like to be able to hear my amp and music over speakers in my home studio and not have to worry about headphones. |
Going direct to your DAW with the steel, and hearing it through your amp as you play, aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. If your DAW has a high-Z input and your volume pedal has dual output jacks, and my Hilton does, one output can go to the DAW input, and the other can go to your amp, as you would normally connect it.
Start your DAW with the steel track in "record" and the rest on "playback", and you're all set. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2015 5:57 pm
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I've done that Dave but just don't like the sound of steel direct in. In a high dollar studio with expensive mixer and preamps may work ok. See your point, thanks.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 3:28 am
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well, there really is no such thing as Steel direct to the DAW.
The DAW, every one of them, needs a preamp of sorts, be it external or internal.
If you are going from your AMP line out, thats a preamp, if you are playing into some sort of ext. $49 to $2000 box ahead of the DAW, thats a preamp.
The term going direct implies you are not MIC'ING an amp and plugging directly into a preamp from the Guitar or volume pedal.
Now, which preamp you use ? well thats really what we are discussing here.
But there really is NO SUCH thing as going to the DAW direct without some sort of input preamp...internal or external.
IF you are NOT mic'ing your amp speaker, your are termed "going direct"
Personally I prefer external preamps rather than any on board plug-in's, I now mostly use the DBX 376 channel strip... wonderful front end tool. Love it ! I only mic Acoustic Instruments these days , and they too go thru one of the external preamps. If it's got a 1/4 plug , it will 99% of the time go into one of the preamps, probably the 376...
http://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/376
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill Liscomb
From:
MA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 6:02 am
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After a lot of monkeying around trying to record my Tele, I ended up with a Vox VT 15. Unlike several other amps I tried (thank you Guitar Center for your 30 return policy), what I get out of the speaker is the same as what comes out the headphone jack. It sounds like this:
https://soundcloud.com/bill-liscomb/truck-drivin-girl
Sometimes, I'll go direct in to the preamp and use the amp simulations in Cubase.
I am getting confident enough on steel to start recording and I have a Roland 40GX for my steel and hoped it would be as good as the Vox going line out. Unfortunately, what comes out the Line Out/headphone jack comes nowhere near matching what comes out the speaker. I tried everything I could think of, so now it's back to finding which mic works best. Going line out I was surprised how much distortion I could hear from my Freeloader and from the Goodrich LDR 2 pedal. They both sound great coming thru the speaker - go figure.
So I guess the answer is to figure out how to use what you got to get what you want. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Steven Pagano
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2015 2:53 pm
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I would suggest, if you are on a Mac, to start off with Logic and get into PT a little later. PT might be a better format if you are a professional engineer (and I would debate that), but Logic has a far more intuitive interface, additional included instruments and processing tools included, and it plays well with other gear. And you wont be a la carte for everything. And b/c its mac, theres no planned obsolescence.
As others have said, you've got a lot of choices for going in (D.I., mic, etc), but try to get the best quality pre/interface you can afford. It will be your most important purchase.
Good luck to all. |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2015 3:38 pm
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I just got my 11rack.... I love the guitar presets but am getting a real honky tone on my steel any ideas on some presets that sound good? Thanks
_________________
D-10 JCH Dekley U-12 D-8 Magnatone Mullen RP Evans RE 200 profex 2 BJS bars
Dentyne gum (peppermint) |
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