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Topic: the 'quality' myth.............. |
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 12:21 pm |
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I think the parts is a great idea, because apparently there are many more home builders, surprising figure.
AND those massive profits.
| Tony Lombardo wrote: |
I think the answer has far more to do with John Maynard Keynes and Adam Smith than it has to do with Leo Fender or P.A. Bigsby.
Tony L. |
Seems so. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 1:14 pm
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| Alex Shi wrote: |
Great post. There are no lap steels available where I live, but I really wanted to try one. I'm a lousy carpenter, so I got a pine 2x4, a prewired pickup on ebay, tuners from an old guitar, took an old aircon mounting bracket to the local metal shop and the guy cut it up for bridge and nut (for free) and I have a lot of fun learning to play. This is probably the most crude lap steel ever posted here, but maybe it will encourage others.
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i have built and sold several pine steels. they play great and sound fine. inexpensive too!!
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Alex Shi
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 2:34 pm
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
i have built and sold several pine steels. they play great and sound fine. inexpensive too!!
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These look great. I like your semi-slotted headstock design. Is it possible to get a closer look at that part? |
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Alex Shi
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 2:42 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| Alex Shi wrote: |
| ...I'm a lousy carpenter, so I got a pine 2x4, a prewired pickup on ebay, tuners from an old guitar, took an old aircon mounting bracket to the local metal shop and the guy cut it up for bridge and nut (for free) and I have a lot of fun learning to play. This is probably the most crude lap steel ever posted here, but maybe it will encourage others... |
No, it's not the most crude lap steel ever posted on the Forum by far, Alex. It's pretty good for a first attempt. I notice that almost everybody puts six strings on their first lap steel, and I think it has more to do with the fact that the regular guitar has six strings and so fittings, especially pick-ups, are more easily obtainable, but it's very limiting. The next time you build one, Alex, you should think of putting eight strings on it. That makes playing in C6, for instance, a lot easier. Meanwhile, well done. I hope it encourages everyone else to build. It's not difficult.  |
Thank you for the kind words. I don't mean to derail this thread but in what way do eight strings make playing in C6 easier? I have been learning the six string C6 tuning and it seems most basic teaching material, tabs, etc is written for six strings. But I also noticed a lot of folks use eight strings. Thank you for your help. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 3:47 pm
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You get a better range with 8 strings than with 6. To play in C6 with 6 strings means either losing the bass or treble range, or some of both.
By the way, if you want to give yourself more versatility with tone, think of fitting more than one pickup. Also, try building a hollow body and compare it with the solid one. The idea that the shape of the body only matters on acoustic instruments is a myth. The acoustics of an instrument are transmitted to the strings, and affect what the pickup picks up. If that weren't so, why would jazz guitarists choose to use archtop f-hole guitars instead of solid ones? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 5:03 pm
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| ...in what way do eight strings make playing in C6 easier? |
8 strings will allow you to play certain licks and phrases with less bar movement. But if you are a beginner, I suggest starting on 6 strings and stay with that for at least a year before expanding to 8. I've been teaching steel guitar since 1977 and I've discovered that beginning students do much better on 6 strings than 8, and there is much more instructional material for 6 string lap steel.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Alex Shi
From:
Taiwan
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 1:13 am
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| Really good advice and tips from the veteran pros here. Thanks a lot. It's a blessing for a newcomer like me. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 3:55 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| ...if you are a beginner, I suggest starting on 6 strings and stay with that for at least a year before expanding to 8... |
...so build your guitar with the capacity for 8 strings and only put the middle 6 on. Then, later, you can add the other two strings without having to build a new guitar. |
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Robert Allen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2015 4:04 pm Re: the 'quality' myth..............
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
one can't help but wonder what the 'mission' might be among these different manufacturers.
Just wondering how so many similar guitars on the market today really fulfill the dreams of today's
demanding player. |
My "mission" is to enjoy my retirement doing something I like doing, and in that regard I've been very successful, 315 lap steels and still building. A "demanding player" is someone who dreams of having me build a $1500 instrument for $300. With more than 60 steels shipped offshore, I can take comfort in knowing I'm helping to balance the trade deficit. The IRS also loves me. I haven't seen the millions of dollars that people think I'm making but after taxes I do manage to have enough to buy another bottle of prune juice. Important for us old retirees.  |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jan 2015 1:28 am
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Good one Robert ! I always figured making a million bucks in aviation, ( or even building guitars ) was to start out with 2 million....
Good to hear you are helping the trade deficit though |
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Tony Lombardo
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 4:02 am
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Several people have made comments on my post. Most of these comments are based on the false idea that I believe that lap steel manufacturing is an endeavor with potentially "huge profits." That sentiment is neither what I said nor what I meant. Mr. Montee's original question was about the motive(s) of the manufacture all of these lap steel brands and models. He went on to wonder "how so many similar guitars on the market today really fulfill the dreams of today's demanding player." My post was my response to these great questions. Yes, I believe these manufacturers are interested in maximizing their profits. (Certainly, no manufacturer in history has been opposed to it.) I never said anything about "huge profits." Microeconomics is about maximizing a company's profits whether those profits are twelve dollars a day or $10,000,000.00 a year. To me, the plethora of lap steel models and brands is at least in part about this motivation. I'm not saying it's the only motivation, but it is certainly a serious concern. Love and respect for the instrument is a lovely idea, but it doesn't put bread and beans on the table.
Respectfully
Tony L. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 5:01 am
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My mention of 'massive' profits was a tongue-in-cheek rejoinder to Mr. Pilburn's post, as it seems he was being somewhat facetious as well.
I'm guessing he got into the trade to build good guitars rather than to get rich and has done well with his original intention toward quality.
If I understood you correctly, Tony, manufacturing in general has more to do with long-standing economic factors than responsiveness to individual needs.
Did I get that right?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 4:59 pm Pilburn ?
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I am not sure about Mr. Pilburn.
Mr. Piburn AKA Mr.Boards is not offended in any way to Tonys Profit commentary.
In Fact we reversed our opinion and agree totally, that Manufacturing Steel Guitar has paid for may things in our lives.
Profit is a major motivation, with one little hitch.....
Any one who thinks there is any profit in manufacturing steels need to contact me right away -
I've have my Manufacturing Business Prospective to sell the Company - Brand Name - the whole Enchilada.
You just need Coins Backbone Vision and Durability. I will sell you every thing you need to have a success.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 5:09 pm
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Thank you for clarifying me, Mr. P.
I found it interesting; wish I had the coins (and the appropriate skills).
I do appreciate your help the other day with the pickup on my guitar. It's working fine now.
Thanks.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 5:40 pm
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I've met a lot of steel guitar builders, repairmen, teachers, and sales guys in the past 40 years... and I've found that very few, if any, are getting rich. They're just paying the bills, making a product that they love, and if they are lucky they might make a small profit.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Tony Lombardo
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 6:09 pm
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Wow, I must be really poor at expressing myself. When did I say anything about "massive profits?" Basic economic theory includes the idea that lots of models with a variety of features of any product gives the manufacturer a better a chance of maximizing his profits by selling more items by meeting the needs and desires of as many customers as possible. This kind of responsiveness to individual needs is a long standing economic factor in production. I never said that any steel manufacturer is getting rich off of his artistry. If this is what I implied, I truly apologize.
I think it's time for me to stay clear of this forum for a while. I've clearly offended some of the members here, and that's a big problem for me. Over the years, I've worked hard not to offend anyone online or anywhere else, and I've clearly done so here. I'll stick with reading your posts from here on in.
Sincerely
Tony L. |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 7:06 pm
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Easy Tony! I don't think you have ruffled any feathers, at least certainly not mine 
I think that any defensiveness in this thread comes / came from the original post title of the thread and its questioning the motives and "quality" of todays builders and their instruments.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
Follow me on Facebook here |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 28 Jan 2015 7:32 pm
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Tony, you're right. You did not use the term "massive profits". You said "profit". And of course, you're right. Every builder is hoping to make a profit.
I also agree about the loaded term in the title... "quality myth". The implication is that today's steel guitars are not of quality, as compared to older guitars. That bias is pretty clear in the title. And questioning the "mission" of today's steel guitar builders, the motives of the builders. There's a hint of negativity and cynicism, and even flame baiting.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 29 Jan 2015 2:55 am
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| Tony Lombardo wrote: |
| Wow, I must be really poor at expressing myself. |
I don't think so, and I'd be saddened if you removed yourself from posting.
The internet, in any form, is a cold medium that requires more words than would be necessary in conversation. When I asked you if I got it right, it carried doubt that I did. I believe I understand what you were saying now, and you acquitted yourself well in your further explanation. Certainly, as others have said, you have stepped on no toes that I've seen.
The forum is a social as well as technical medium and thus offers a challenge in communication; thus we spend a few extra words here and there making sure we got it right so conversation flows and no one has to leave the room.
I know little about economics but enough to know that profit motives are old and the basis of trade. Quality goods, many of which are offered on the forum, determine the choices we have and we all hope to see the rewards of profit for those who offer quality instruments so that we can continue to get them.
Perhaps it was me, Tony, who interjected a word that threw us off topic (which had drifted into the subject of home-building guitars and the challenge of getting quality at a low price, something outside the greater profit picture). My interest was peaked at the possibility of Georgeboards branching into the parts business for those who want to build their own.
Seriously, I think you were right on.
No apology necessary from anyone; we may well be in accord, and your ideas are appreciated, as is the quality of your writing.
[As an aside, I'd note that 'More words count less,' and it may be me described by that. The forum seems to be coming out of its winter sleep and political correctness brings words of apology that aren't necessary. I have way more posts than Tony or anybody else on this medium.
Bill Hatcher represents the happy medium, with a perfect score of 1.0 posts per day. Perhaps its me who should withdraw? Why would any of us shy away from the search for balanced communication? I shall try to be more brief in future, and we can all continue as we are. MORE than enough said.]
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 30 Jan 2015 4:08 am
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The market is oversaturated with 6 string lap steels. Wish it was oversaturated with 12 strings so then they were actually usable. Don't like having to pick and choose chord notes not based on choice but on limitation.
It's like over saturating the guitar market with 3 string guitars. Useless and that's why people give up and the player numbers don't increase like guitar.
Quality sound is important full stop but not nearly as important as technique and string gauge.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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