Once again: amplifying a dobro

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

One of the groups I play dobro in is getting more gigs, some in louder venues. I am attacking the age-old issue of dobro amplification from a few different angles. Eventually, I will probably end up with the Fishman Nashville/JD Aura set up. But I am primarily a steel player and dobro is still a secondary instrument for me, so ramping up my investment to that level will have to wait a little while.

This is an acoustic group (save for my pedal steel); acoustic guitar (with K&K Pure Mini going through a Baggs para to the board); double bass through a Fishman pickup to the board; and me on steel and dobro. (And vocal mikes, of course). To this point I have miked the dobro with a K&K Silver Bullet condenser mike into the PA. Very good tone at low volumes, but feedback prone as things get louder. I also have an AT 2020 condenser mike the sounds good, but same issue. I am in the process of picking up an original Marrs cat-can steel (pre-Fluger without the built-in electronics) that I intend to use with a BOSS GE-7 or other eq for very loud situations. I will try to keep using a mike whenever possible, but that will include a lot of rooms were feedback will always be lurking, and neither of my mike rigs going straight into the board gives me any immediate recourse to deal with creeping feedback.

So here are my thoughts, all of which beg questions:

1) I can run a mike through a preamp for some local volume control. I picked up an ART V3 on the cheap, which has input and output controls, and a phase inverter (among other bells and whistles). This seems to be a good choice, although it sends an awfully hot signal to the PA, and it has no EQ to dial down specific frequencies. I also have a Baggs para acoustic DI, but it requires a Â¼â€ (presumably unbalanced) input. This actually works well with one (major) exception: I have a little adapter to go from XLR to Â¼â€ but it is extremely sensitive to any jostling, and makes a horrific noise if it gets bumped. I took it apart to check the wiring and everything is tight and clean in there. Seems to me I have seen mikes go into these boxes, but maybe Iâ€™m imagining that. Should I be able to run a mike into there? Do I just need a better cable or adapter? Or is this a bad set up for reasons of impedance, balanced vs. unbalanced, etc., etc.? I tried putting the BOSS GE-7 into the chain but that killed the signal completely: nothing out of the PA.

2) As I mentioned, I plan to use the cat-can for very loud venues. I will either use the GE-7 or my Zoom MS50G (which has a five band equalizer to effect the â€œzig-zagâ€ dobro simulation) so I can add a little reverb. Big question with this set up is: do I have to go into my amp, or can this be sent straight to the board. I mean, I know it can be sent to the board, but will that greatly diminish whatever dobro-like tone I can achieve? (And, yes, I know a cat-can amplified will never sound like an acoustic dobro anyway, but in a very loud environment, Iâ€™m betting it will be a whole lot better than anything else [including just using the â€œzig-zagâ€ EQ on my pedal steel: I just canâ€™t get realistic six-string dobro licks on ten strings].)

Any and all thought welcome on a snowy day in NH: 18â€ down and the storm is still going strong. Anyone around here got a shovelâ€¦..?

Dan

Greg Moynihan · From: Bremerton, Washington, USA

Short summary of my $.02, If the stage volume tends to be high, then mic's are the enemy, so prioritize getting a pickup. Also, the simpler and more solid the rig, the better. It's preferable to have one good, solid guitar/pickup/DI combination than it is to have a more complex rig of sub-optimal devices. Ultimately, the faster and easier your setup is, the more songs you get to play.

The Baggs para DI is not intended for a mic input, it's intended for a piezo-electric pickup. It happens to work, but the impedance is not matched properly for a mic, so it is bound to be sub-optimal in some way.

Sound guys might have issues with the ART studio pre. The ART pre-amp is going to send a line-level to the house board, so to use that, advise the sound engineer to turn his input gain down and/or pad the input down. Or, you could insert a DI after the ART pre-amp, this would also bring the signal down to mic level. Another thing to keep in mind is the ART needs AC power, and could introduce a ground loop if the mixer and the stage are on separate circuits. I can tell you, as sound guy who's worked a few hundred shows, that is an really unpleasant bug to deal with during a show.

The cat-can rig probably sounds ok going direct, I wouldn't worry about mic'ing that amp unless the amp has a particular effect or tone quality that suits the dobro particularly well.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Thanks, Greg: extremely helpful and to the point info.

Rob Anderlik · From: Chicago, IL

Great post Greg!

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I will try putting a DI between the Art preamp and the board. I just ordered an ART ZDirect for that purpose. There will be a 1/4" to 1/4" connection between the two. Since it is carrying a line level signal out of the preamp, do I need to use a speaker cable between them (rather than a shielded guitar cable)?

Greg Moynihan · From: Bremerton, Washington, USA

Most any instrument cable is just fine in that application. Speaker cables are required only for high-current, in other words, speaker-level amplifier outputs.

Also, as you probably know, explicitly confirm with the board operator that your channel is muted in the mains and monitors before you plug in at the start, and before you unplug anything at the end. Also be mindful that your pre doesn't have any potentially bad cables or come unplugged/unpowered and then back on in while it's live in the PA.

Otherwise, that could make a big nasty pop out the mains and monitors, akin to plugging in a mic on a live channel. Popping the PA is the sound guy's equivalent of getting spaghetti sauce on one's nice shirt - it can make one a bit crazy.

Have fun!

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Thanks again, Greg! First gig with this set up will be Friday; I'll report back.

Dan

Michael Brebes · From: Northridge CA

You can get by with the Nashville pickup into your Baggs Para DI as an interim approach. Later when you can afford it add the JD Aura between the Nashville PU and the ParaDI. That's what I did.
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Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso

Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

Dont waist your time and money and jump on the Fishman Nashville/JD Aura set up!

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Well,

if I had the money, I would! But that's $200 for the pickup, $300+ for the pedal, and probably shipping the dobro off to a highly qualified tech for the pickup installation (another $250-300 when all is said and done), since I gather from numerous posts on this and other forums that the setup is not simple and is critical to the pickup functioning as it should.

As I said above, down the line, I will probably end up going that route, but I'm working within a budget for now.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I think the best setup for dobro is a condensor mic. There are so many places sound is coming from I think you need the omni directional characteristic to capture the tone you are hearing acoustically.
However, if you need to get loud or the stage volume is loud, then an SM57 or something similar is probably a better choice as it can be made louder before feedback.
My opinion - play a lap steel if you're thinking a about going with a with a contact or magnetic pickup.
Not that it applies to your situation - If there are drums in the band or more than a couple of electric instruments give up like I did. I tried a myriad of contact and magnetic pickups and never was satisfied.
Dobro tone occupies a lot of bandwidth. To me it's great character gets masked quickly in a band with electric bass and drums.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Well, I've got an 8-string, so a bridge pickup is not in the cards... so I'm going down tomorrow and buy a Sennheiser E609 side-address dynamic mic and a windscreen. Still looking for the right clamp to hold it... something like an LP Claw but with enough width for the body depth. I've tried a lavalier condenser (A-T) and the feedback was too much. Probably run it into something with a notch filter on it, like an acoustic amp.
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

Hi Stephen, can you please tell me why you prefer the 609 over a 57? I have both mics and will have a tricone gig next week and wounder which one to use?

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Well, Jean... I've already got several 57's and I'm looking for something that lays flat against the guitar, something I can clamp to it and have it ride along. I haven't bought the mic yet... it's at the downtown GC, not the closest to me... but it's a well-known mic and I'm ready to experiment.

So, basically... wanting a side-address mic for this, and the 609 is the good cheap alternative. I'll post back when I can get this going, hopefully before next weekend.
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Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

I have found that the Lace Sensor Deobro pickup is an affordable option. It's a stick-on pickup, available as a single coil or humbucker (I have a single coil and run thru an ElectroHarmonix Hum De-Bugger....cuz it certainly buzzes without it). Positioned close to the cone, it is surprisingly responsive to the reso sound. Sometimes I run it into an amp, sometimes into the mixing board via a Baggs ParaDI. No feedback issues playing full band with drums.

The pickup is around $100 new.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You might try changing how you monitor yourself. You can buy a cheap "hot spot" personal monitor and get it up and away from the dobro. In ears if they are possible are great also.

If there is a drummer or some other loud sound source you could look into a plexiglass shield for on stage.

Another thing is the Bagg para DI has a very effective and simple way to notch out feedback frequencies.

Picking real hard can help with feedback also.

I had great luck for years on the road with a cheap button mic mounted on the cone running into a Baggs DI.
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Bob

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i can't believe you're having that much volume trouble if the other members are just an acoustic guitar and bass. they really must be banging away!

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

It's not them, it's the sound men who insist on cranking everything. Also some pretty difficult rooms (long, narrow, hard surfaces).

Paul Honeycutt · From: Colorado, USA

Stephen, Audix makes a clamp called a CabGrabber that might work for you needs. It's designed to work with an amp cab, but there's no reason it wouldn't work with a Dobro. They make them in two sized, the smaller one is $49.00 at the usual online retail outlets.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Michael Maddex · From: Northern New Mexico, USA

Steven, I think that you might find this thread of interest:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=150983

HTH. Good luck with your project.
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Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Tom Keller · From: Greeneville, TN, USA

One of the best ways to limit feedback that I have hear about was offered on the forum several years ago. I can't find the original post. It also would affect a resonator guitar's external tone the most. The best I remember it went something like this take the cover plate and strings off. Take either construction paper of the right diameter or a file folder cut to size and slip it over the bridge and spider effectively having covered the cone and reassemble. One would then have a resonator guitar that would work in the loudest of band situations. I can see this working very well with some sort of Piezo pickup. I have not personally tried this.

Tom Keller

Greg Booth · From: Anchorage, AK, USA

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