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Topic: Dumb Question bout splits |
Barry Gokee
From:
Sault Ste Marie Michigan, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 7:26 pm |
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Can someone chime in and get me up to speed on guitars drilled and tapped with splits. my old clunkers don't have them. Cant wait to hear what ya got to say. thanks guys for your replies
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Justice Prolite Sd 10 Mullen D10
2 Msa D-10s HMS Sd 10
2 Session 500 Session 2000
Nashville 112 Pro-fex |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 9:14 pm Tunable splits
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Barry, the split tuning screws, are allen cap screws. On the changer end of some all pull guitars. Look for some pictures of an all pull Emmons and you will see a row of Allen head cap screws on the changer end above the nylon tuners.
They are arranged on legrandes so that they contact or set the lowers. Or in other words you tune the lower stops using the Allen cap screw. Then you use the nylon tuner in the lower to tune the split.
Tune the open string
Tune the raised note with its nylon tuner
While its raised, use whatever pulls the lower for your split
Keep holding the raise
Tune the split with its nylon tuner
Release the raise
Tune the lower with the allen cap screw
I imagine some dont use them this way. But every string possible needs to have its lowers tuned this way, whether you are splitting or not.
And on strings that don't get lowered, run that Allen up against it until makes contact.
Raise the pitch of the string just a bit, then use the key head to lower the string back to where it needs to be.
Now you have as many points of contact as possible between the changer and the guitar body.
Careful, you can go too far.
You almost have to have one, and experiment with it and you will be amazed at how close the legrandes at least will sound like a push pull Emmons. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 2:59 am
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If you don't have them, don't worry. You can get splits with using an extra rod. I'm going to assume you want to raise your fifth string to C#. Lower it to Bb, and end up with a C note. You would need to add the extra rod to the bellcrank that the Bb lower is on, but add it to a raise hole in the changer. Now when you tune that string, tune the open string at the keyhead. Tune the raised note with the regular nylon nut. With pedal still activated (you might want to have a & B pressed at the same time), you now hit the lever and tune the C note WITH THE NYLON NUT FOR THE LOWER . Next let off both pedals and the lever. Now activate just the lever. You'll find that it is probably flat. That's what the extra rod is for. Use it to slightly raise the string to bring up in tune.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 4:24 am
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For the Mullen, you might get that bar behind the changer drilled and tapped. If not, see the MSA.
If the Miller is pull-release, ask Richard Burton.
For the MSA, you'll have to use the "second rod" method.
On the bellcrank of the lever that lowers, add another rod to the raising finger (on the MSA if you drop both 5&6, you'll need a "Bradshaw gizmo" to borrow either an adjacent string's raise or a lower of the same string¹). On the 6th string, for example, you'll tune it in the following manner.
1: tune the open note (G#) at the keyhead
2: tune the raise (A) with the B pedal tuning nut
3: tune the split note (G) WITH THE LOWERING ROD of the lever.
4: tune the bottom note (F#) with the RAISE rod of the lever, as it WILL be flat
¹if you have a Franklin pedal and an x lever on the MSA, you'll need TWO gizmos. I would put one sideways using the topmost holes of 5&6, and pull the A pedal in the string 6 hole. The C pedal would be in the top hole of 5, and the split rod in the bottom hole of 5's raise finger.
String 6 would have the B pedal in the bottom raise hole and half of a gizmo using the lowering finger of 6 for the split. I may draw a picture: I see only one solution for all those pulls (unless you used Bud rods and barrels.
Here you go 
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 6:33 am
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Note that the cap screw provides an absolute bottom.
If you have a Franklin pedal, you will need the "second rod" method to split X lever and A pedal, as it would prevent lowering to A.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Barry Gokee
From:
Sault Ste Marie Michigan, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 9:30 am
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Thanks guys for the replies. anyone wanna chime in as to cool splits as im in kindergarten mode on this issue. I'm in the process of buying a guitar and the owner told me its all drilled and tapped for splits.Thanks again guys, Guess were kinda one big family.
_________________
Justice Prolite Sd 10 Mullen D10
2 Msa D-10s HMS Sd 10
2 Session 500 Session 2000
Nashville 112 Pro-fex |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 9:45 am
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First of all, the kindergarten fundamental fact to understand is that without these tunable splits, you can still combine a pedal and a lever and get a note. But if the resulting note is in tune and the lever'd note is in tune, it will only be by coincidence. Without a tuned split, you have to decide which one you want have in tune; the combined note or the single lowered note.
The most common tuned splits are mentioned above:
--6th string: B pedal (G#>A) + Full step lower lever (G#>F#) gets you a G.
--5th and 10th string: A pedal (B>C#) + half step lower lever (B>A#) gets you a C. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 10:17 am
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Jon makes a good point about choosing which note you would rather have if you can't use a split. I only split my 6th string as I don't lower my B's to Bb. I would rather have the F# in tune, rather than the G.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 10:50 am
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Barry, if you drop 5, here's some
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1IY1E-uKU
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Bill C. Buntin
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 5:52 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| If you don't have them, don't worry. You can get splits with using an extra rod. |
True, but a triple raise on the guitar is required.
My former classics had double raise double lower changers, and I used Tom Bradshaw's inserts to convert the 5th and 6th strings. But that was not enough to install a split on string 5.
I took the guitars to Jim Palenscar, who drilled out a hole on each guitar to house split screw. Jim is truly a magician. The splits worked perfectly.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 5:59 pm
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Mike, may I submit this?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 6:48 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| If you don't have them, don't worry. You can get splits with using an extra rod. |
True, but a triple raise on the guitar is required.
My former classics had double raise double lower changers, and I used Tom Bradshaw's inserts to convert the 5th and 6th strings. But that was not enough to install a split on string 5.
I took the guitars to Jim Palenscar, who drilled out a hole on each guitar to house split screw. Jim is truly a magician. The splits worked perfectly. |
He didn't say what guitar. And he hasn't said what string. If it's the MSA, Lane has it covered. I would imagine the Mullen is probaby triple raise. I don't know anything about the Miller.
If he is talking about string six, you only need a double raise for that.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 7:24 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| If you don't have them, don't worry. You can get splits with using an extra rod. |
True, but a triple raise on the guitar is required.
My former classics had double raise double lower changers, and I used Tom Bradshaw's inserts to convert the 5th and 6th strings. But that was not enough to install a split on string 5.
I took the guitars to Jim Palenscar, who drilled out a hole on each guitar to house split screw. Jim is truly a magician. The splits worked perfectly. |
I was told that it wasn't possible on a classic ! Was it pricey ?
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 1:44 am
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Dustin, it may not be possible, but Jim did it anyway. He is a wizard.
This was over 10 years ago. I don't remember what he charged me.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 2:52 am
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I can think of two ways to put in lower stop screws on a Classic.
1: drill holes in the existing bar between the pillow blocks. They'd have to go at an upward angle.
2: replace that bar with something that goes higher up, so that screws would more easily stop the aluminum part of the fingers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 6:33 am
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It should be pointed out that a U12 tuning uses 3 raises on the 5th string, and as I had mentioned, I had already installed Tom Bradshaw's doohickeys that converts a lower to a raise, and needed more than that on the 5th string in order to get the split.
However, a straight E9 only uses 2 raises so inserting one of Tom's devices will give you the extra rod needed for a split.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Barry Gokee
From:
Sault Ste Marie Michigan, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 11:08 am
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Thanks guys for the info. The guitar Im talking about is a noname triple raise double lower originally coming from Pennsylvania. Glad you guys are eager to answer my dumb questions concerning this instrument we choose to indulge in, good or bad. Thanks.
_________________
Justice Prolite Sd 10 Mullen D10
2 Msa D-10s HMS Sd 10
2 Session 500 Session 2000
Nashville 112 Pro-fex |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 11:16 am
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If it uses 3/8" string spacing and 3/8" between holes in the fingers, the Bradshaw gizmos would work on yours too.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 11:21 am
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| Barry Gokee wrote: |
| The guitar... is a ...triple raise double lower |
Unless it's a U-12, there's no problem. As has already been said, you can use the 3rd raise to tune the splits. There's no need for either Tom's raise/lower conversion gizmos, or any kind of surgery on the guitar. You only have to install another rod.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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