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Topic: David Hartley Tuning |
Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 28 Jul 2014 3:56 pm |
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Would anyone happen to know David Hartley's exact tuning and copedant?
Thanks
Dwight
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Dekley (PRS-10C), BMI S12 |
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 28 Jul 2014 5:10 pm David's Copedent
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Here ya go
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Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 9:32 am
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Anybody know how he tunes his guitar? I've had teachers, read Newman, and have a Peterson stomp. I've been playing 24 years, and still haven't found a temperament I can stand. To my ears, Mr. Hartley is the most in-tune player ever. When listening to some steel radio show with random content, and a Hartley song gets played, I can identify him in about 5 notes even if I've never heard the song before, and that is just weird.
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 9:52 am
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Hartley's copedent is the most standard of standards in the modern steel world. His secret of getting the licks he does comes from great technical chops and a precise and melodic sense of note choice.
The fact that he's always in tune is that he's trained his ears and body to hit the notes correctly. It's aural perception and muscle/visual memory.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 10:16 am
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Glenn, I second what Herb said. With knobs on.
Buddy tuned straight ET, I think I read somewhere that David uses one of the common temperaments (it doesn't matter which: you or I wouldn't sound like him even on his guitar), and you can find pros using nearly any standard.
Hartley sounds in tune because he PLAYS in tune. His ears guide his hands.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 10:59 am
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You guys are just taking my excuses away....
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 11:02 am
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| Glenn Demichele wrote: |
| You guys are just taking my excuses away.... |
Didn't mean to rain on your parade, man... you need to go out and buy more gear! 
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 11:08 am
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Gear hasn't worked either - time to try something else. I wonder what kind of cologne he wears...
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Daniel Ibanez
From:
Madrid, Spain
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Posted 23 Nov 2015 1:25 pm "Plain and Big Truth"
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Glenn, I second what Herb said..."you or I wouldn't sound like him even on his guitar"... Hartley sounds in tune because he PLAYS in tune. His ears guide his hands. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Nov 2015 7:45 pm
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| What Herb said! |
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Jason Lynch
From:
Essex, United Kingdom
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Posted 24 Nov 2015 8:31 am
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David uses a Peterson Strobe tuner, or was when last we met. However, he can tune the steel almost to exact pitch by ear alone!
The copedent he has is about the best I've tried, and I've got something similar on mine now, seeing as I've used a few of his Tabs it made sense! And I love it! |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2015 9:47 am
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Thanks guys for all your comments. I was trying to find tunings which work better with my particular brain. I can play single notes in tune regardless of my tempering. With chords however, I notice that my brain seems to focus in and tune the instrument to the band using only one note in a (three or four note) chord. If for example I use the Newman tuning: when I play certain inversions of a chord, my brain might tune that chord to the band using the sweetened third and the roots will be sharp w.r.t. the band, but I don't hear it right away because I'm focused on only one note. Another irritating thing with Newman for me, I really notice that I have to fret the AF inversion closer to the bridge. If I use ET, the bar is always over the frets but everything sounds un-mellow.
I think I found the answer though: this meantone approach really worked for me, and I even sound in tune on playback at all the chord positions.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=276287&highlight=meantone+tuning
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2015 1:00 pm
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Glenn, you may try what I use by just simply getting the beats out. I tune E's to 440 with pedals down and then tune to the E's getting all beats out except the 7th string. It I just find something between to where it sounds good. Tune you 9th string to 6th string with pedals down. I think I sound in tune most of the time. I've tried the Newman and also the Peterson Strobe and the Peterson is closest to sounding in tune to my ears but still needs to be tweaked a little . David Hartley is always right on the money. I don't think it's his tuning as much as it is his ears and his eye to hand control.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2015 11:07 pm
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You know what gets to be really exciting? At some point, most steel players get kind of psycho about the whole "tuning thing," and set out with the goal of playing really, really, really "in tune." Practicing single notes against drones, practicing pairs of intervals so the intervals are really perfect against each other. And, I don't think it takes any particularly-high level of skill beyond persistence to train your ear well past the point where the adjustments made for the equal-tempered tuning needed to keep all 12 keys an equal amount out-of-tune start sounding... out-of-tune....  First you start realizing that you're out-of-tune, then you notice that guitar players are out-of-tune, then you notice that Duane Allman and Miles Davis are out-of-tune, and every soul singer, every piano is out-of-tune then everybody who plays with a piano player has to play out-of-tune in the way that matches the keyboard's out-of-tuneness... Just back AWAY from the grizzly bear, do NOT turn and RUN, just back AWAY from the bear, sir...  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Nov 2015 4:36 am
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The whole tuning debate is a bit of a wild animal. When I started playing (on my own) I tuned in natural intervals because they gave me that amazing sonority that drew me to the PSG in the first place. I was a bit concerned by warnings on the forum that this would not work with even-tempered instruments such as keyboards and (to a varying extent) guitars. I need not have worried. When I was eventually invited to join a band I carried right on, making sure that the notes the audience is conscious of (mostly the top line) were in tune and letting the others take care of each other. I knew it would work because I also play trombone. (A trombone section can’t play in even temperament – the only in-tune state it can detect is natural intervals.) The band, which consisted of two singers (one of them in tune) a guitarist who used a tuner but didn’t know what it was set to and liked to use a cheap capo on his 12-string, an electronic piano and an extremely tasteful and accurate drummer, all said it sounded good and so have audience members since.
Looking at it scientifically, the deviations from natural tuning introduced by well-meaning programmable tuners are going to be easily wiped out by small variations in bar placement, angle and pressure. But it’s a what-works-for-you situation. Your tuning of choice may not actually have a theoretical basis but may be just a reflection of the way your left hand works.
I get my cans of worms in bulk from Costco.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 26 Nov 2015 10:42 am
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You won't get David's tuning without BSF and BSW wrenches. It's a fact...
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I need an Emmons! |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2015 2:01 am
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Has anyone noticed David's coped has no Bb? That's not really standard. He has the G# to F# on the vertical, in addition to a Franklin pedal. And the 1st string G and G# on separate levers.
I like the look of that.
John |
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Jason Lynch
From:
Essex, United Kingdom
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Posted 27 Nov 2015 2:49 am
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| As a copier of David's Copedent, I think it's quite versatile setup. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2015 2:03 am
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Do ever miss having a B to Bb lower?
John |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 3 Dec 2015 7:04 am
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| John, you probably know you get the same notes( flat5) on str 34568+10 one fret below with B pedal and F lever! |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2015 11:43 am
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I'm asking because I find my B to Bb lower to be my least used modifier. I use it to go from root to a 2 dominant, or a 4 to a 5 dominant. I know it must have many more uses, but if David Hartley doesn't have it, with all his abilities, maybe I could use the lever for something else. It is a vertical of the standard Emmons setup, certainly for reasons more than playing a 2 dominant chord.
John, I see what you are saying, you lower your bar one fret and raise the root and 3rd back up, and you have your 5th flatted and the other chord tones natural.
I don't mean to hijack the thread from David's intonation. I'd still like to hear what tuning system he uses, and I don't think we got a clear answer on that. But I have to say I think we all adjust our playing to a particular guitar and tuning, and play by ear brain and hands. David is one of those pitched gifted players who would be in tune regardless.
John |
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Marty Rifkin
From:
Santa Monica, CA
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Posted 3 Dec 2015 12:42 pm
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Hey John...when we did the Capitol Records sessions, you probably remember that there were a few minor walkdown lines that appeared in some of the pieces (sometimes referred to as "line cliche"...minor, min(maj7), min7, min6). On a few of them, I used the B to Bb lever when I wanted a fat chord descending or arpeggios.
Minor chord with the A pedal (3 frets up from the pedals up major chord). A pedal down, A pedal down with Bb lever, pedals up lever off, Bb lever.
There are certainly other ways of playing the same thing, but this was a pretty easy method. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2015 4:20 pm
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Hi Marty...you are another one of those pitch-gifted players!
That's a great tip on the use of the Bb lever to play minor chords with descending bass. I had not found that one yet. Not as frequent in traditional country but a very common progression in pop and jazz. As important as the 2 dominant move.
My Funny Valentine, Stairway to Heaven, lookout... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2015 10:52 pm
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This minor chord with descending bass works on an all pull guitar. On a PP, the raise over rides the lower, so the A# lower does not work with your A pedal engaged.
John |
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