C6 with a band- what temperament?

Jim Rossen · From: Iowa, USA

I am new to steel guitar and just started to work up some CW and swing songs with my blues band that consists of electric guitar, bass, and drums (I mainly play harmonica). What temperament is best? I am using Cleartune for iPhone. I have been using John Ely's recs (see link) but my band mates were not sold. It was probably my bar placement, but....

Jim

http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/tuning_up.php

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

I temper all steel tunings as follows... the roots and 5ths to 440, flat the 3rds very slightly, and flat the 6th slightly more. For me it's a combination of the tuner and the ears. Keep in mind that a steel guitarist is constantly "intonating" with his bar as he moves from fret to fret.
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Patrick Harison · From: Minneapolis, MN

Jim,

I can feel exactly where you coming from... I've been getting the hang of playing C6 with a band over the past year or so and have gone through a lot of trial and error to get it right"ish"... First off, you're probably right about the bar if you're just starting out. After a year with my band, I'm finally getting everything in tune. It takes a lot of work to whip the bar right where it needs to be. I'm actually a student of John Ely's, both on the internet and in person (I'm lucky enough that he only lives a couple hours away from me!). His tempered tuning sugggestion WILL eliminate any beating while playing sustained chords. If you're playing steel out front ala hawaiian or western swing with lots of big chords, you should temper as John says, or use something similar to what doug suggests. That being said, if you're doing lots of single note work, you will find that the more tempered tunings will not exactly land on the frets for lead work. Using equal temperament will have all the notes line up exactly with the frets at A440... BUT, if you're playing chords you will hear some "beating" with any sustain. However, I doubt that your letting any big fat chords ring out for a super long time. So, perhaps tuning to equal temperament is your best bet starting out to improve your odds. Another thing that helps with intonation is cultivating a good stylistically appropriate vibrato... Not only does it give your playing a singing quality, but also allows you to find that sweet spot with intonation. In the same line, learning how to appropriately phrase with the bar will give you an opportunity to find the correction intonation. Last but not least... I'm not sure what kind of instrument you're playing, but for example, those beginner rogues and other entry level instruments have an EXTREMELY short scale length that can make intonation extra challenging. Definitely another factor to be aware of. I find it's way easier to play on my 24"+ scale resonators than it is on shorter scale steels. Obviously all of the above can be done, but it's definitely worth considering!
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

John Ely's chart that you referenced should sound just fine with any band. I would use -4 instead of -6, but I doubt that your bandmates would hear any difference.

Your problem is most likely bar placement. Avoid 3 note slants until you're really sure that you've mastered them.
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Roger Fletcher · From: United Kingdom

I am puzzled about temperaments and slant chords, and hopefully some of you more knowledgeable guys can sort me out.

For example, if I am playing a major triad on the top three strings of the A6 tuning, the usual recommendation would be to flatten the C# string a few cents. But, if I play a forward slant major triad, that flattened C# string now provides the root of the new chord, which will be flat. If I then move the bar a little higher, the major third on the first string will now be sharp, and if I reduce the slant to compensate, the fifth on the third string will be sharp.

This seems akin to the classic problem of just tunings on the piano - some chords will be beautifully concordant, while other keys will produce the so-called wolf chords.

I have a theory about Jerry Byrd's E9 tuning as used on his Admirable Byrd album. I believe that inserting the F# string between the E and G# strings enabled him to get the forward slant on strings 2,3 and 5 in tune with a just temperament, thus overcoming the problem I described above.

I look forward to any comments.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Good point, Roger.

I'm actually pretty good with bar slants, but I shy away from most 3-note slants in public. The only one I use often is JB's classic bar nose slant, where you use the nose of the bar to get the C and A strings at the same fret, and catch the E string a fret lower for the 7th of the chord:

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

i know this doesnt solve the problem, but i have noticed, listening to Jerry closely, that he will often 'roll' major chords vs just doing a 3 finger stab chord. this is just a WAG, but he seems consistent in doing it so either he liked the sound, or it served some intonation purpose. i dont seem to recall him hitting the standard s1-2-4 major chord as a grip very often - he would 'roll' it or not play all 3 notes together. by the time he brings in his lush vibrato, there is no detectable intonation issues.

these little 'tricks' are one way he devised to 'fool the ear like a magician fools the eye'. i feel there was a reason for it. its amazing how dead-on accurate his intonation was. slowing his playing down with software and listening, he was either superhuman or had these little tricks to 'fool' the ear.
if they were recorded today i would swear up and down it was auto-tuned.

i agree with Doug on tuning the perfect 5ths straight up and flattening the 3rds. to my ear - i can really tell any variance with p5ths - i can tolerate flat 3rds/6ths a little more. each of us probably hears differently on that though.
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Patrick Harison · From: Minneapolis, MN

It's my understanding that another part of Byrd's intonation strategy was to make sure the OUTSIDE notes of a 3 note slant were in tune... Especially true of 3 note reverse slants. If there is something a little funky in the middle, the ear will let it slide.
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Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

i guess technically, anytime you are not playing the chord as a block chord it could be called arpeggiated - but i kind of distinguish this more. arpeggio to me is more distinctly hearing each note of the chord being played. JB would say, drag/brush his thumb over the lower strings while hitting the high note with his index. very subtle but noticeable and better sounding, imo, than the block chord.

what i'm getting at, is that i have found that the higher voiced major triads can sound sour if you just grip em as a block chord. i've totally gotten in the habit of 'rolling' these chords and to me, that sounds better (better sustain/intonation/more musical) - i'll hardly ever hit a 3-4 note major chord (min/dom, & rest ok) as a block chord. ironically, i noticed JB often doing the same thing.
and sure, the tempo of the tune would dictate this too.
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Mikiya Matsuda · From: San Francisco, California, USA

Jim,

I'll echo what other folks have said. I think John Ely's tuning specs should give you that sweet, lush, and mostly beat-less sound when you play chords. I've had the chance to study with John on Skype and he always sounds in tune!

David Finckel (former cellist with the Emerson String Quartet) has some very candid videos explaining how he works on his intonation by playing along with a tuner (Cello Talk #27). You can find all his Cello Talks here: http://cellotalks.com/list.

There are some great videos about vibrato (#16-21, 24), about how he approaches vibrato and intonation (#76), and even one on using a simple tuner (#25).

If you have a keyboard with an organ setting, you can use your extra steel bars to weigh the keys down and drone chords. I bet that if you test various tuning systems along with different flavors of droned chords (major, minor, diminished, augmented, and on and on) you're ears will lead you to the specs that sound the best to you overall.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

If you start w A C# E (straight) and slant forward to A D F# it is possible to get it to sound in tune by very accurate placement of the bar using the rounded tip to get the F# intonated. It is certainly not easy and will take a lot of practise. To find the correct placement start with covering the 3 strings w the straight part of the bar without using the rounded tip on the top string. Slant forward until the A D sound correct and the F# will sound way to high. Now slightly pull the bar straight back keeping the A D perfectly in tune and you should start hearing the F# flatten. Before the tip of your bar lose contact w the first string, the F# should hopefully sound in tune w the A and the D.
It will take a lot of practise to get that slant sound correct and Im not there for sure, altho I know it can be done.

Just tested how far I could flatten the top note while still keeping A and D in tune.
If you are lucky you might be able to find anything from A D F#(w too high F#) to A D F before the tip of the bar loose contact w the top string. Sliding the minor F into F# while keeping A and D sounded really cool but getting the correct top note will take a lot of practise.

Bengt Erlandsen

Roger Fletcher · From: United Kingdom

Thanks for all the helpful comments. Plenty to think about there and to practise (Brit spelling).

Roger

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I will admit, I need to work on this. I don't think I tune the way everyone else does. I do it by ear and don't use a tuner. Sad, right?

In my playing, I know that occasionally intonation can be a little bit of an issue. I would like to blame it on my tuning, but in truth it is a symptom of being an improviser. Most of the time, I don't know from phrase to phrase what I'm going to play, so it is one of those things that I try to control, but have realized that it is almost inevitable.

In fact, if my intonation is perfect, it means I am not taking enough chances! (At least that's how I see it.) Smile

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

One time when I saw Buddy Emmons play, I think it was either in Rhode Island or CT, he set up his gear and then he asked the band "does anyone have a real E?" The guitarist played an E note and Buddy quickly tuned his D-10 by ear from that one note. JB, Herb Remington, and others would often change tunings on stage by ear, no tuner. Of course they learned to play in the pre-tuner era. I think nowadays it's wise to use a tuner for at least the root notes of your tuning.
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Mike Neer · From: NJ

As centered as I can.
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