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Topic: Chromatic, Diatonic, Zane Beck Tuning |
Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 24 Jun 2010 1:36 pm |
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Reece Anderson wrote the following:
Since pedals and knee levers on the 9th and 6th tunings provide the option of moving in and out of chromatic and diatonic alignment, are you considering exploring a different tuning, and if so, do you have a tuning in mind?
Foremost, to a colleague that I admire and respect not only for your body of work to the steel guitar but also your demeanor of character and class. I'm honored to have you reading along as I endeavor to contribute to the advancement of our instrument we have in common.
In short answer to your question, while I have some sort of scale always moving through my mind (probably should get medicine for that  I do not consider myself a tuning innovator. So much of the roadmap already established by greats just like yourself and my mentor Zane Beck have provided me with ample tools to express my artistry. What I can tell you is that I do not want in any form to slow the progress by only adding simply another option. For now, I will carry forward the tradition I have in hand. Only by proven and tested methods will I introduce any enhancements to tuning setups. Of course, I will continue to advocate the use of 12 strings for our musical bicycle.
In complete agreement with you that the steel guitar is firmly rooted in music of all persuasions and will no doubt continue to marvel the minds of many. My only hope is that in due season the recognition of the instrument itself will become as identifiable to the music buying public as those in the band who back us steel players up.
_________________
Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Joe Babb
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2010 2:11 pm
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Hey, Sonny,ramble all you want. If I don't get to ramble, I'll have to quit posting. 
Just wondering, did you buy a course on the 12 string from Jeff Newman or figure it out yourself or what?
I've got a book by Bill Stafford since we are currently using a tuning based on the e9/b6 he uses. But I haven't worked very hard on it yet. LOL |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 10:49 am
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Hey Joe,,,good to hear from you!! No, when I gave up the 10 string E9 many years ago I was using the Day set up. Then when I started back, I started back on a universal tuning and saw some video or ??? with Jeff playing a universal tuning (also Day set),,so,,,I thought, well if he thinks those are all the changes he needs 7 pedals, 5 knees, I'd be perfectly happy to play like that,,,LOL. I think someone gave me a E9/B6 video that kinda helped, plus my mind kinda thinks in the western swing mode, so I saw that if I dropped those Es,,,there was the sound I was looking for. Jeff used to say,,,just grab a handful of strings! Actually, my little 8 strings lap steels that I made taught me more C6 (B6) than anything I could do. I soon saw that most of what I wanted laid out good on a lo to hi 6,1,3,5,6,1,3,5 tuning with a straight bar, then I saw that the slants that were needed on the lap steel were provided by pedals on my PSG. And most single string stuff on the 6th tuning is without pedal,,,just the chord work uses pedals,,,,or at least for me,,,,but I'm by no means proficient at it.
Jesse,,,most definitely!! My uni tuning just gives me the 2 lower strings. When you lower those Es you are in the B6 mode (your 9th string D might get in the way, if you can lower it to B it would give you a root for the B6),,,,or when you mash the A and B pedal you are in A6 mode,,,and you can do tons of old western swing,single string and harmonies,,SGR, Bootheel Drag, Panhandle Rag, Sugar Moon, San Antonio Rose, Window Faces the South, on and on, with either of these 6th tunings. Note that ZBs tuning has the 6th (C#) there permanently. |
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Jesse Leite
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 3:30 pm
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
| Jesse,,,most definitely!! My uni tuning just gives me the 2 lower strings. When you lower those Es you are in the B6 mode (your 9th string D might get in the way, if you can lower it to B it would give you a root for the B6),,,,or when you mash the A and B pedal you are in A6 mode,,,and you can do tons of old western swing,single string and harmonies,,SGR, Bootheel Drag, Panhandle Rag, Sugar Moon, San Antonio Rose, Window Faces the South, on and on, with either of these 6th tunings. Note that ZBs tuning has the 6th (C#) there permanently. |
Cool thanks! Would you find it any more frustrating trying to play western swing on an E9 neck because you are constantly having to lower the E's?
_________________
Playing an '81 BMI SD-10 4&6 through a Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 all-tube amp.
E9 Fretboard Reference Booklet (Chords & Scales PDF) |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 25 Jun 2010 3:37 pm
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| NO!!!,,,,when I lower those Es my guitar just naturally starts "swinging",,,LOL. Drop down 2 frets from 10th fret G with E lowered is G6, hit B pedal I'm in G7, down 2 more frets w/6th pedal another G7, down 3 more frets w/5th pedal, another G7, down 2 more frets no pedals (E still lowered) is C6. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 5:49 am
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| Please forgive us for hijacking this thread,,,,let's stay on subject and bump to top,,!!!!! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 6:14 am
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No worries on the topic shifting Sonny. I think it's my trademark anyway! Also, to Jesse L. about the engagement of the "lowered Es" to accomplish a more swing/jazz approach on the E9 tuning. There are no lazy steel guitar players. Well, that might be up for debate but at least when you are playing one it's no time to get lazy since you engage every limb of your body...and I think your suppose to do something with your brain as well but I've not mastered that part yet.
_________________
Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 11:23 am
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I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but with Zane's tuning you can do all of those old Don Helms things he did on the Hank Williams recordings without even using any pedals, it's all laying right there in front of you.
Zane, I may try a version of your first four strings in that I may leave the F# on the outside for a little while and put the C# I have on string two in the 4th position so it wouldn't be too radical a change at first. I have my 9th string tuned to C# now and I like having that note constant and I can see uses for it on the top side of the tuning. Keep up the good insights as it's appreciated.....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 26 Jun 2010 11:50 am
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Hey Jerry! Check out that other thread on here called "ZK on ZB Tuning - Second Thoughts". There is a link there with the You Tube video I posted today.
It's a 7 minute version but I think you'll find it very helpful because I go slowly through a pretty thorough comparison of the open part (top 4) of my tuning as compared to E9.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2014 11:01 am
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Great thread if you missed it!
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 7:56 am
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Thanks Niels for bringing this back up. It was fun to revisit that.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 8:10 am
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As a point of clarification the reason the Steel is not considered chromatic is you are limited by your bar position as to what notes you can play. As with many other instruments, like the piano, the entire note spectrum in any key is only limited to how you can hold your tongue as you make contortions, but they are there? 
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 10:02 am
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The modern E9th has every note at every fret. The X lever (lowering B to A#) and tunable splits have made the copedent truly chromatic.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 12:46 pm
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To be truly chromatic all 12 notes of the chromatic scale need to be available at the same time. So that any two or more notes are available simultaneously, unless I misunderstand. Which is highly probable. 
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 1:36 pm
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Well maybe we will get a knowledgeable individual on here to explain this chromatic instrument to us. I see your point that if a violin is chromatic then why wouldn't the steel guitar be? I thought it had to be as in a piano where all notes of the chromatic scale are available at the same time. This should be interesting!
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 4:47 pm
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| I think the reason the E9th is called E9th chromatic is because the top G# and F# was added to the tuning. Not because it's a chromatic instrument. Or at least that's the way I understand it. |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 12 Jun 2014 6:52 pm
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Those notes are diatonic to the scale, not chromatic. For the key of E the chromatic tones are F,G,Bb,C and D.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 13 Jun 2014 12:28 pm
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By definition of a chromatic instrument most all modern day pedal steels fit that definition but that is only because of what can be accomplished by the bar. Harmonica would be an example of a non-chromatic instrument. Of course, there is a chromatic harmonica that is used by many players especially for jazz. The point to this thread is that we don't have any truly chromatic scales that we can easily access from any point. I have what I call pockets of chromatic like scales that I use and I love them.
So again, the point is that pedal steel is more about pentatonic than chromatic. Thus, for the larger music community it is a bit confusing why we refer to the E9 tuning as a chromatic tuning. I promise you if you play gigs with jazz instrumentalist and you don't run chromatics at least occasionally then they see your playing and instrument as pentatonic. But let me add that it doesn't matter one bit. Jazz instrumentalists everywhere respect pedal steel and most of the time a steeler can hold his or her own on just about any tune.
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Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 13 Jun 2014 5:19 pm
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
| Those notes are diatonic to the scale, not chromatic. For the key of E the chromatic tones are F,G,Bb,C and D. |
Niels yes I know. Chromatic theory has little to do with why the E9th is referred to as the E9th Chromatic tuning. Here is part of an article about Buddy Emmons.
"In 1962, he left Tubb to join Ray Price and the Cherokee Cowboys, replacing his long-time friend, steel-guitarist Jimmy Day. His first recording with Price in September, 1962, produced the hit song, "You Took Her Off My Hands". On this song Buddy made elegant use of another of his major steel guitar innovations- adding two "chromatic" strings (F# and D#) to the E9th tuning".
It was common after Buddy added the F# and D# strings, that string manufactures labeled their string as "Nashville E9th Chromatic".
So to Zane's point, it is a little confusing if your thinking theory and you hear E9th Chromatic tuning. Then you strum across the strings and realize it isn't a chromatic tuning at all. That's why I never use E9th Chromatic tuning if some one ask how my guitar is tuned. That and I'm just lazy and don't want to use all them words. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 14 Jun 2014 6:17 am
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
| Those notes are diatonic to the scale, not chromatic. For the key of E the chromatic tones are F,G,Bb,C and D. |
And those notes are available by a very slight movement of the bar.
Joaquin Murphy played very jazzy and chromatically on a nonpedal steel. |
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