Gibson ES-355 question....

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Roger, I just picked up a 90s Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion III like the one you depicted, except in red. It is really growing on me. Years ago, I had a 70s Howard Roberts with the elliptical soundhole, I strongly prefer the Fusion. I never could warm up to the neck on that 70s HR.

The Howard Roberts Fusion has some useful differences from the ES-335/345/355 series. Aside from the single-cutaway and thicker body, the HR also has a different type of wood block running down the center of the body - it's made of 'chromyte' (aka balsa, it's very light and soft) and it's not rigidly coupled to the back of the guitar. The block does a great job of tempering severe acoustic feedback at loud volumes, but still allows a bit more archtop vibration than a 335/345/355 type guitar. It may be the perfect semi-hollow for me, but if it turns out that way, it will be hard to justify keeping my pristine ES-335. But I'm not there yet, I'm also a sucker for Gibson thinline semi-hollows.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's interesting, Dave - thanks for the description.

It prompted me to dig up some old emails between Micky and I we exchanged just before he died - he talks in glowing terms of the HRF111 and describes his frustration with his previous Gibson - an ES-175 he bought from Andy Summers. In his words the HRF had: 'No feedback!!!'

I've got far too many guitars here in the closet that I doubt I'll ever play again so, if the HRF fills the bill, as it were, I expect the 355 will quietly go back into store. Out of kindness to my wife who will almost certainly survive me I really should get rid of some of them!

I'm not sure when I'll have the HR in my possession. It may not be even before I have to leave for my ND gig (May-Sept) but it's something to look forward to...
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

"But I think they look really, really cool on SG's, Gretches, and... 335's!"

Which is why I bought it. Now I'm contemplating actually playing the 355 rather than simply standing in front of the mirror with it.

I don't accept what you've said re: tension unreservedly - it's been my experience that the same gauge of string tuned to pitch will feel easier to bend if the overall length (including that above the nut and below the bridge) is shorter. This manifested itself even more with my Super 400 with its extra-long headstock.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

What about the downpull behind the bridge or past the nut of the guitar? Like the string trees on a fender guitar. Do they have some effect on tension? If that is true at all, it seems like a stop-tailpiece might actually increase string tension on the guitar, perhaps making it possible to use .009's, if that is what is most desired.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Now I'm remembering a Les Paul Jr I used to have. It had a stop tailpiece and played great. When I put a top mounted Bigsby on it, I made the mistake of mounting it too far to the rear of the guitar. This greatly lessened the string angle behind the bridge and the guitar lost a lot of stability due to an increased slackness in the strings.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Well, I think I'm going to stoop to expounding amateur physics here... I had a thought about string tension.. So, the mass of the string, the length of the scale, and the pitch of the note- these three things determine the string tension. That makes sense. Why then does string length have such an affect on feel? I'm thinking that the string lengths beyond the nut and behind the bridge have their own scale lengths (and resultant tensions)- after all, they are strings tuned to a pitch. So, when you tune up your guitar, your tension is affected only by the three aforementioned factors, but once you start interacting with those strings, you are also interacting with the scale lengths on either side of the bridge and nut. When you bend, or even the simple deflection of picking a string, you are deflecting all three "scale lengths" at once, not just the one that you are trying to make music with. So, a string tree shortens the "secondary scale length" on the headstock, resulting in greater tension, and greater "interactive" tension for the primary scale length. That 's why a locking nut and locking bridge is so stable (and probably a much truer representative of a chosen scale length, feel-wise). The heavier your "secondary scale lengths" are, the more resistance you will feel when you interact with your "primary scale length".

*quotation marks are just there to acknowledge that I'm making this up and am not at all sure of myself.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

PS: Roger, do you have a Les Paul, or some other Gibson with a 24"3/4 scale and a stop tailpiece? You could try out some .009's and maybe get a better feel for what changes might do to your guitar.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

From the GFI website, discussing alleged advantages of keyless tuning:

"When using keys for tuning, the excess string length needed to reach the keys from the nut absorbs vibration, taking energy from the main body of the string and decreasing sustain. This is eliminated with Keyless Tuning. Pedal and knee lever travel is decreased since there is less string to stretch. Pedal and knee lever action also feels more solid. The length of the instrument is shorter, therefore stronger, minimizing detuning while pressing pedals. Strings break less frequently since less movement of the bridge cam is required to acquire the same pitch. Undesirable overtones created by the excess string length are also eliminated with the keyless system. These overtones are detrimental to the pure tone of the instrument, as they will vary with string gauge, string length beyond the nut, and the location of the bar on the strings."

If the statements highlighted in red above, which deal with the effect of string length beyond the scale-length endpoints, are correct, they would apply equally to lateral bending of standard guitar strings, wouldn't they? This may not be properly a matter of tension, but the reduction of overall string length would change the feel of bending on a standard guitar, if the statements are correct.

Dan Erlewine says that removing the string tree from a Fender guitar will result in strings needing to be bent further, but with a springier, less stiff feel at the "top" of the bend than with the string tree. I feel, without claiming scientific accuracy, that my subjective experience confirms this. Same string, same scale length, same pitch, different bend distance to achieve a given pitch change, and different "springiness".

These things would suggest to me that the possibility that changing to a shorter overall string length would affect the feel of playing the guitar perhaps ought not to be dismissed.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Henry:

No, I don't have another Gibson electric - Fenders are my general preference.

Brint:

Perhaps 'tension' is the wtong word but it's the only one that expresses my impression. Everything else being equal, I find a shorter overall string-length makes bending a string seem easier. I have far too tenuous a grasp of physics to attempt an analysis. Even a Jazzmaster seems a little less 'pliable' than a Telecaster!

David:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'neck dive'. It sounds a bit violent and I don't believe it's in my repertoire! I share your dislike of the tremolo-arm as a musical tool and the last time I used one was before we had decimal currency in the UK! Whoa!

It's hard to imagine a 6120 without one, though... Smile

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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Venturing a guess--my grasp of physics is limited, too--maybe the word is elasticity rather than tension.

I think David is referring to guitars that are "neck-heavy", not to a playing maneuver. I don't agree with his implication that it doesn't matter, though.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

here's another option -

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

A trapeze tailpiece would be an easy option, but you still wont be happy with the extra string length behind the bridge. Your bet bet may be to find one to trade for, or sell it and get the one you really want.

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Hey, Donny, great idea. That's a Gibson Vibrola, isn't it? It would cover the screw holes and be easily reversible, one would think. Maybe you would be lucky and not have to drill any holes. With lightish strings, say 10-46, it shouldn't be too unstable for oblique bends to sound good, which can be an issue with a floating whammy bar.
I'd be interested to see what the break angle would be over the bridge saddles, compared to the Bigsby, or a stop tailpiece; yet another little factor affecting the string to body interaction, and thus the instrument's sound.
Chris
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

What I mean by neck dive is when you're standing with a guitar on a strap, and if you're not holding on to the neck it slides down towards the floor. It has become one of those "reviewable" features that seems to have little or no bearing on what I personally want from any guitar, but they have to say something after "it's red" and "it works", etc. In looking at the picture, I do see that that Bigsby on that guitar does add 2", maybe 2.25" compared to the hard tail. When I say it makes little difference, I mean - you are bending a string that's 24.625" long between nut and bridge. Add 2" string length above the nut, call it a 26.5" string with a hard tail, or a 28.75" string with your Bigsby. That difference in string length is less than 10%, and unless I'm off here, that would translate directly to the needed force to bend the different lengths to an equal change in pitch. Of course 10% can be felt, but would it really be affecting your ability to play the charts in your job? (I didn't know "The Jimi Hendrix Story" had hit the stage already..... Smile

)

It matters, but I'd guess less than a change from 9's to 10's. (10% again?) I've only owned a few Bigsby-equipped guitars, and I do remember that unlike a floating and lightly-sprung Stratocaster, bending strings with a Bigsby didn't appreciably change the pitch of the other strings. Of course you could make it do that if you bent enough strings far enough, but that's like jumping around trying to make the neck dive or something. Many people have, in the past, bent strings on a Bigsby-afflicted instrument, and many more will do so in the future. What I might suspect, at least from my own adventures in (instru)mental torment, is that you just don't like it as much as you "ought" to, and you're trying to figure out what's "wrong" with it. It's beautiful, it sounds great, it's... it's... it's just not a very good Telecaster, is it? Crying or Very sad

The grass is always greener, I don't know how they keep pulling that trick off.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

"..... is that you just don't like it as much as you "ought" to, and you're trying to figure out what's "wrong" with it...."

That sums things up pretty accurately, David. I bought it as a replacement for my earlier 'Lucille' (virtually the same as a Bigsby-less 355) but this one doesn't feel as good to play. The 'Lucille' was outed because I'm uncomfortable with 'signature' guitars for reasons I can't define but it was almost perfect in the playability stakes. Rightly or wrongly I attributed it to the string length.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

I agree with most everything said here about tailpieces, string length, hacking a custom shop guitar, etc.

However, IMO the bottom line is that there is something (additional string down pressure on the bridge? less string behind the bridge? strings anchored to the center block? all of the above? none of the above?) about a stop tailpiece on an ES series guitar that makes for a really responsive and good sounding guitar..
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

It took me an embarrassingly-long time to figure out that the reason I preferred the Telecaster shape to any of the more squished and melted "comfort contour" Fender shapes was specifically that big square ridge along the top, because my right forearm would hold the guitar neck in place. I was pretty awful at the Jimmy Page knee-dangling flaphand thing too.

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