Push Pull Changer Settings?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bobby,
Can you help us straighten out those misconceptions?

Problem I see is there are about a half dozen p/p repair gurus and their attitude seems to be that the rest of the world is incapable of understanding what they know about the mysteries of the p/p. If we could get some good, solid info out there for folks to refer to, those of us who can't send our horn to Tennessee or Texas at the drop of a hat might have some of the wisdom of the ages to draw on.

Our friend John Lacey has an excellent website with great info. If we can build on that with GOOD INFORMATION from guys like you and Cass and Seymour and Crawford, we can preserve some of that knowledge and spread it around a bit. I know that some fear for their livelihood, but I can assure you that the only push-pull I'll ever work on is MINE.

Just a thought -- I know you've contributed to John's site already but some nuts 'n' bolts techie stuff would be welcome.

Thanks for being here -- we really respect your knowledge and willingness to share. Good luck with that new guitar -- I'd love to hear and play one -- and see that double changer.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

David Doggett · Posted 11 Dec 2002 9:06 am

Thanks for all the advice guys, it is beginning to all make sense, and I just sent away for Bobbe Seymour's video on P/P tuning and maintenance. Bobby Bowman (or anyone else), don't be afraid of being a "smart ass." We appreciate your wisdom.

I'm in the same situation as Larry. If there was anyone in driving distance of me, I'd take this thing to them tomorrow. I'm also open to hearing about anyone anywhere that can competently work on a P/P, and would be interested in their price for a cleaning and adjustment (e-mail me).

As it is, I just bought a P/P which at some point in the past was taken apart and put back together wrong, which is the main reason it was at a price I could afford. At the moment, I'm not trying to do anything different or fancy with it. I just want the 3 pedals and 4 knees to do the simple basic E9 stuff. With no one else around here I can turn to, if I can't figure out how to adjust and maintain it myself, I'll have to reluctantly get rid of it.

So thanks for all your help, guys.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Guys,
I've been trying for over a year now, hell, closer to two years, to write out a simple and understandable to the "layman" procedure manual. It's not that I can't produce a manual. I just don't have the necessary time to collectively put all my thoughts together and in some kind of a meaningful order. I thought it would be a piece of cake to do, but the more I get into it the more I realize that I don't have the word capability to express in an understandable manner what I know how to do on these things without writing a way too many paged book. I certainly don't have the money to hire someone to help me in those areas of articulation (I guess that's the word).
In a capsule, I'll try to hit the high spots.
1'st: String the guitar up to pitch and "set" the strings (stretch them a little). Don't go overboard with the stretching or you'll loose a good bit of the string's ability to sustain....just enough to where they stay in tune pretty well.

2'nd: Set the changer by hand to "ALL" of the changes you want on the guitar. (this is the place where your guitar will tell you if you're asking too much of it, at least in most cases). This is also a good place to judge the guage and response of a string that it is correct and is compatible with other strings and changes in other places. Most of us use prepackaged strings and in most cases these have proven to be the best choices over a broad spectrum. They are not always 100% correct, but are usually "in the ball park".
With the changer "set" now all you have to do is rod the guitar,,,,well, sort of.

3'rd: Put in all the lowering or push rods. This usually has to be done in a sequence and with the advanced knowledge of what other strings are doing that will and might affect the "action" and outcome of the final goal. Always start with the changes that require the most travel and set you stops to that string. I find that lowers usually don't require as much travel as some of the raises so I have to keep that in mind as I'm setting things up.
In all likelyhood, at least until you have become familiar enough with the characteristics of the beast, you'll probably have to go back and make some changes and adjustments along the way. "ALWAYS" leave just a little slack or play in your settings....everywhere!!!! This will help to eliminate tuning problems later.

4'th: Now start the raise/pull rodding. I usually start with the 4'th string on the "C" pedal and the 3'rd string on the "B" pedal because thes usually are the "longest" throws (require the most travel) On a push pull this is where selecting the proper or best hole in the raise finger comes into play. Kinda', as a rule, you put the wire puller in the 1'st, or closest to the axle, hole. This is not always the case, but most of the time, it is. If the action is just too stiff for you, then you have no choice but to go to the second, or middle hole. In doing this, your action will be softer, but a little longer. This means you have to readjust the stop screw to allow for more travel.
Now, in most cases, I find that the 3'rd hole is best suited for everything else with the exception of raising the 1'st and 7'th strings a whole tone and maybe a few other "special", so to speak, changes. In this case, the 1'st string should probably be a .012 guage and the wire puller placed in the 1'st hole. The 7'th string will probably be in the middle hole. Another thing that has to be considered in these situations is what lever is going to activate theser changes. For instance, if you have these changes on the vertical, and you are also raising the second string (and lowering it a whole tone) you will have to drop the vertical so low that you can't get under the guitar and not cause it to be "out of tune" or the required movement of your leg is just not comfortable or becomes of no practable use for the change. This is where "the limits" of the "as is from the factory" guitar or string become a factor. Changes to the guitar can be made, but you have to have a way to facilitate those changes.

5'th: Start setting the other raises to be balanced (or unbalanced as the case may be) with the rest of the changes,,,both raises and lowers. This is usually where the use of absorber springs comes into play (Actually, I should have mentioned this in the "lower push rods" section too)
I use as little (few) springs and as short a spring as I can to achieve "that ultimate feel" that a push pull Emmons can and should have. You'll have to be your own judge on this. Too much spring usually causes too long of travel, mushiness and the loosing of "that feel" or any combination of the three. That's just my own personal opinion and I'm sure there are some who would disagree with me. What ever blows your skirt up is what's best for you.

There a litterly many other aspects to be considered and that I do not have the time or room to go into here Adjusting the pedal stops and lever stops is just one of the areas. In short, I generally look and listen for a distinct "click" when it all bottoms out. If I don't experience this, then I start looking for the reason/s why and make the nessary adjustments.
There's nothing much better than a push pull that has that fast, easy, solid, "play me" feel to it. There's nothing much worse when one lacks these qualities.

One last, but most important thing for this session,,,,FRICTION, FRICTION and more FRICTION,,,,friction is one of the worst enemies of any pedal steel guitar, especially a push pull! Go through your entire mechanical train, starting with the foot pedals and from there to the very end of that "moving" train (or anything that doesn't move that may impede or cause friction) and eleminate as much or all of the friction that you possibly can. Try to do this with as little or no lubricants as you can get by with. Lubricants, when used unwisely or where it is not absoluty needed, can be as big a detrimental cause, especally after a period of time, as anything else that may fall into this catagory.

Hope this helps a little. Just remember to use common sense and don't be afraid to "experiment" a little here and there. Make lots of notes too. It's part of "the learning".
BB

ps: please excuse my butchering of the Queen's English and my country boy way of saying things. That's just me, I guess. Anyways,,,,lots of luck!

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Jeff Peterson · From: Nashville, TN USA

Bobby, wow, that must've taken awhile(I know you don't type for poop.....just kidding). Well done. I miss you since I moved out of Texas. We need to get together and go 'Herb tippin'. On an established guitar, set up, don't forget string guage alone can cause changes. As one of the greatest human beings I know has proven(Jimmy Crawford), a 10 + 10 push pull is a viable/playable thing. To keep from going the long way around the barn....you can lower/raise anything on a push-pull and still have a great feeling and playable guitar. As opposed to an all-pull guitar, the Emmons push/pull is just a simple give/take kinda' thang. My best example is, Zane King's(fabulous player, by the way), guitar....a single 12 with more than one whole tone lower/ whole tone raise, plus the added wonderfulness of a step and a half lower with a step and a half raise....this ain't your Daddy's P/P! Thankfully, I made it work...with careful thought about the whole Original design. This really is a wonderful system, and I really don't know anyone that can argue tone with me. I will admit, the only really difficult thing, is making a tunable split...not bad, just time consuming on a loaded guitar.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Dang it, Bowman, you're alright no matter what they say

...

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Geoffery,
How you be, man?
I think they (the PP's) are the absolute best on the planet. You're right about the splits though,,,,they suck. I don't even try to do 'em anymore. It's a waste of time and somebody's money.
I do wish that most of the guys would learn to do with as little as possible,,,at least to brgin with. Then let their learning curve and ability dictate what new or other changes, if any at all, to put on their guitars.
Oh,,,,,,and you're right too about the time it took me to type all that stuff,,,,just about all afternoon and I still made some goofups.....

.....I think I'll take a little nap now,,,,,
Later,
BB

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

OK,,,second session,,,and this one will be a little shorter,,,I hope, and will be dealing with setting strings that both raise and lower. Now mind you,,,I'm just sorta' hitting the high spots on all of this. Hopefully, if you encounter a problem here and there, you'll be able to recognize what to do to get around it. If not,,, email or call me (281-856-9453) and maybe I can help you.

When setting/adjusting strings that both raise and lower you "MUST" give presidence to the lower when setting the raise.

1'st: Activate the lower and keep it activated solidly by what ever means you can. ie,,,with an elbow, another person, that "third hand" (haha!), or whatever you figure out to hold it in.

2'nd: Bring the locking collar on the raise rod up to the bellcrank and leave just ever so slightly a little room between the collar and bell crank,,,,maybe a 32'nd of an inch.
Now, if you have other changes on this pedal/lever, you must keep in mind to address the one that requires the longest amount of travel first. Other changes that require less travel will be adjusted after you attend to the "long" one. This is usually where the absorber springs come into play. Unless I just have to for some reason, I don't usually put a spring on the long throw. Only on the shorter one and I prefer to use no more spring lengths than is necessary to "balance out the feel" and still maintain a good and solid pedal/lever.
Yes, this means you will be cutting springs to the proper and desired length to achieve this. Sometimes you only need a coil or two and sometimes more. On rare occasions have I ever used a full length "factory" spring.
If you don't have a grinder wheel or a belt sander to "dress down" the cut end of the spring, at least try to make your cut as clean, straight and square as possible and put the finished "factory" end next to the bellcrank.

Next: You are going to have to address the stops. I'll not argue whether or not the raise finger should hit the guitar body or not. I think it's best if it does. (as far as that goes, it's best for the lower fingers to also hit the lower stop screws in the same manner too)
On a Emmons push pull if you have a string that has two or more different changes, then the only one that makes contact with the body, or the lower tuning screw, is the longest or "dominant" one. The other changes are usually adjusted (tuned) with what is commonly called a "half tone tuner". Of coarse, these lesser changes will not make contact with the body or lower tuning screw.
If you want your guitar to have a chance to feel the way it should, this whole area is of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE!!!! Hell, it's all important,,,but this really is. And this applies to any guitar,,,PP or all pull.
Stops tell your pedals and levers "OK, this is as far as I go for me to feel right". Much attention has to be given here.
Ultimately,,,you want the finger to hit the body at the "precise" moment the pedal/lever hits the stop screw. Now, the stop screw is usually the place where you make the adjustments. There are some exceptions to this every once in a while, but I'll not get into that here and now.
With this all done, you had better go back and check everything, making sure the the raises do not inhibit the lowers.
"How do I tell this?", you ask. Well, it's simple! Just look at both of the changer fingers (the raise finger and the lower finger). As the lower finger travels toward and finally comes to rest on the lower tuning screw, the raise finger should move all the way with it. If the raise finger stops moving before the lowering finger makes contact, then you have to move the raise collar away from the raise bellcrank untill it does. The raise is inhibiting the string to lower to the proper pitch. This also usually means that you have to readjust the stop screw.

I know that this all sounds complicated. And it is until you "get the whole picture" in your mind and see these things in action. If you "pay attention", make notes and put a little thought into all of this before hand as well as when you are doing the work, it really becomes pretty simple. Well,,,I hope so anyway.
Just think,,,after a few dozen tries and maybe a hundred or so guitars, you might can say,,,,"Hey, I know how to do this!".

That's all for now.
Later,
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

Great stuff, Bobby! You 'da man

bob

David Doggett · Posted 12 Dec 2002 8:25 am

Bobby, thanks loads for all this advice. You needn't be afraid of being a smart aleck, we appreciate your wisdom. This is all beginning to make sense, and I am getting somewhere with my P/P. Believe me, if there was someone within a days drive of me, I would take this thing to them tomorrow. Even if I get it working okay, at some point I might send it to someone for cleaning and adjustment, so I would be happy to hear about the best people and their prices (e-mail me).

This S12 E9 was apparently taken apart in the past and put back together wrong, which is the only reason I could afford to buy it. I'm not trying to do anything fancy, just the basic E9 for 3x4. The 6th string problems cleared up when I replaced the wound string with the usual unwound 0.020.

Bobby, I may live in a big city up Nawth now, but I grew up in North Mississippi. So yur English sounded purfic to me. Where I grew up we thought "one of those big Northern cities" meant Miumphus.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

That's great news David. I won't hold "Mississippi" against you.

! My youngest son lives in Laurel and I have a lot of friends from over there.
Don't be afraid to change things around or experiment a little with your guitar. You probably can't hurt the mechinizum. Shoot for the easiest, shortest and most positive action you can get and try to correct as much friction as you can and you should be all right with the outcome.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

WHAT GREAT INFO --
Thanks Bobby -- you da man!!!!

It would be great if John can publish some (or ALL) of your explanation on his website so we don't have to look so hard for it.

Thanks again -- I know it was an effort and I APPRECIATE IT.

David Doggett · Posted 12 Dec 2002 12:20 pm

Guys, one question I have is about pull rods that slide through bell cranks on the right knee lever cross-rods before hooking to the changer. Is this necessary? This puts the pull rods so far from the body that a couple of these have been bent in order to connect to raise fingers. The curved part trying to slide throught the bell cranks seem to increase friction. Other pull rods don't slide through any bell cranks before the changer and they seem to work fine that way. It seems like a straight path would be better, and I don't see why some couldn't pass between the knee lever cross-rod and the body if necessary to reach the raise finger holes nearest the body.

Thanks again for all the help. This baby sure sounds purty when you finally get it to play in tune.

rhcarden · From: Lampe,Mo / USA

Jeff,

I use the same method of tuning all pulls on the A and B pedal that you and everyone else uses on the 4th string F. I'll try to explan it later.

Bob

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Although the info I've written so far is really only skimming the surface, so to speak,,,,if anyone can be helped by it, they are welcome to use it and John certainly has my permission to reprint any or all of it as well as what might be forth coming.
Guys, it takes me so long to type this stuff and try to make sense and keep it kinda' close to proper order. A hundred things go through my mind pertaining to this stuff and by the time I figure out what I want to say, I've forgot a lot of it or I get it out of the order in which it should be. This is what I've been wrestling with for close to two years. I probably should get me a small voice recorder, say into it what I'm thinking (well, most of what I'm thinking,,,

) then go over it and make notes for changing and rearrainging things, also inserting the good ideas of others in places and just in general try to get something of value to the boys. I've heard that Seymoor has a video on this stuff. I've never seen it , but I'm sure it would have some good stuff in it too.
All of this along with trying to get out a new guitar, a ton of repair work and playing gigs,,,,and the usual "Honey Do's" that most of us have to do is a little more than this "turtle paced" old man can do at one time.
Later,
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Kurt Kowalski · From: Kendall, NY USA

Hey Dr. BB,
You think you forget things?
Hah... Um...
I had something very profound to say and just forgot it. Uh Oh.

See ya soon!
KK

rhcarden · From: Lampe,Mo / USA

I have been reading the Forum for few years and I agree that there are some people who are very good at setting up and repairing guitars. I have done all the work on my
guitar sense it was new (aug,66). I have tried a lot of things that didn't work, but there are some things that work very well. I have always pulled the 5th string to D with a knee lever (LKR) and tuned the A pedal C# with a bellcrank tuner. When you use a bellcrank tuner you do not have spring on the pull rod. I did not have a problem with the C# on A pedal staying in tune and liked the the feel of the pedal without the spring. The 4th string F was staying in tune ok. The fact that these two pulls were working good without the pull fingers hiting body of the guitar made me think that I could get rid of all the springs on the A and B pedals. I removed all the springs and adjusted the collars on the pull rods so that the pull fingers stop just before hitting the body. The A pedal worked great, the pulls started together and sense the fingers do not hit the body, they always reach pitch at the same time. The B pedal was a problem due to the travel differance of the 3rd string and 6th string. I first tried a wound 3rd. It help to even the pull but, it would not lower to F#. I knew that on the A/p guitars they had adjustments on the bellcranks, so I modified the bellcranks. I always wanted the 3rd string to have a little faster change anyway, so I made the bellcrank for string 3 longer and string 6 shorter.

Note! I still tune the same way, highest note with the key, lowest note with the screw, and anything between with a bellcrank tuner.

Now! the guitar plays in tune, it has a better feel (I feel the string not a spring), it needs less slack to allow for the lowers G# to F# and B to Bb, and I think it has less cabinet drop (I'm not going to change it back to find out). It plays good!

I don't think that any of you should work on your own guitar, however! if you do, and you find a better way, please let me know! Just remember, I bought this guitar new in Aug,66 and I know how it was set-up and how it played direct from the factory! No need to go there!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Jeff Peterson · From: Nashville, TN USA

Kurt, step away from Bobby....at least 'till you get a P/P. Now, to carry on...I believe all rods, lower and raise need to be supported...the long ones(more than half the length of the body) twice. I see alot of guitars that don't have near the rod support they need. Why?...bellcranks cost money, and some techs(?) figure it either ain't worth it, or the guy will never know. This sucks, and I mean most guitars I see are this way. The raise rods do not need to be flappin' in the breeze, and the lowers do not need to bend like a deer hunter's bow.
Anyway, if you do your own work...great. If you get a chance to have a Bowman, Cass, Seymour, Lashley, or even little ol' me just look your work over, there might be a few things that you've overlooked..it might be worth your time. I mean a diagnostic look, not one of those $2000 Cass looks.....just kidding Mikey.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Geoff,

!

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

I'd be glad to include any or all of the info that Dr. Bowman has given us. I'll run it by my webpal Bruce Hamilton and see. I have my own question for Bobby or Jeff. How do you set up the spring return setup that is located ON the LKR. There is a spring right on the knee lever and also one near the stop bracket that is located near the endplate. How do these all factor into the Raise/lower E's syndrome? Right now, my LKR which lowers E's has a too short stiff feel. I've tried inserting shock springs near the bellcrank but that doesn't do it. Please help.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Hi John,
I would imagine that those springs on that "slave reversing rod" are to help keep the lever it self from flooping around so much. Kinda' a "stabilizier" of sorts. If The LKR lever is either "factory" or at least designed like a factory one, then there should be 3 or 4 holes on the side of the lever itself for options that the slave rod can go through. The hole fartherest away from the base of the lever is the shortest travel, but hardest to push option. The one closest to the base is the easiest, but much longer in its' travel. Try running the pull rod through the next one down from the hardest/shortest hole. These holes are what determines the leverage ratio of the lever. Usually, all of the levers that move to the right (left with the guitar upside down) have these same option holes.
There are other factors that have to be considered too.
The bend in the rod so that it can go under one of the cross rods in order for it to have an unobsquered path to the bell crank must be given a lot of attention. It should pull with as little "flopping around" as can be obtained and not make contact with anything such as other cross rods or whatever. Most of the time the hole in the lever needs to be opened up a little to keep the rod from binding as it is pulled through the "arch" of the lever. To work on these holes, it probably best to remove the lever from the guitar. It's held to the cabinet with 4 screws at the base of the lever bracket. Ideally, that slave pull rod should be straight, but usually you have to put a "S" bend in it to clear the crossrods at some point. VERY IMPORTANT::: Make this bend as little and as true, precise and "square" to the rod as you can and still not touch anything in its' operation.
This rod goes through a small "L" bracket at the other end from the lever. This bracket is the stop. Make sure that it is securely fastened and tight to the cabinet. DON"T STRIP OR SHEAR THE SCREWS THOUGH.....just good and snug. The lock collar behind this bracket has to be adjusted so that it makes contact with the bracket at the same moment the strings reach their correct pitch,,,in this case, I presume it to be D#.
John, these areas are what is hard for me to put into words just what needs to be done. There are several things that must be attended to for this to work right. Just be observant to the whole "picture" or "scheeme" of things. If you see or recognize something that is not right or that is hindering the process, then do what is necessary to correct it and make it better.
Also, another thing that should be checked is the tension of the the lower return springs (on strings 4 and 8 in this case). This can be rather "testy" if you're not familiar with how to do it. But, those return springs can and do play a very important part in the action, feel and playability of the guitar. Have just enough tension on them to return the lower fingers firmly back to their "rest" position. Anymore tension than that is just more resistense that you have to overcome to activate the lever and or pedals, thus making the action of the guitar stiffer than it needs to be which results in a guitar that you're not happy with. There are so many "little" things that need attention when setting up a guitar,,,whether it be a push poull or an all pull. BUT, when you get them all right and with the proper adjustments, man, you have a guitar that other people would die for.
Even though most of these "little" things are really very simple, they are most of the time overlooked, even at the factory, and need to have some attention given to them. These areas of attention are what generally is learned through many times and years of exposure to these things and figuring out what can and should be done to make a guitar play to its' fullest potential of "goodness".
It's kinda' like a puzzle at first. But the more times you scramble a puzzle and put it back together, the easies it becomes to recognize what goes where and why.
More than likely, I've left something out in all of this. Just email or call me and I'll do my best to help you out.
Later,
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Buck Grantham · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

That's why I love you Bowman, you'd give the last shirt off your back if some one just asked.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

This is GREAT!
Bobby, you're a jewel.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Hey Buck,
I just feel that it's all part of "being in the family". If I can help, then that's usually what needs to be and should be done. The world is just full of too much personal selfishness and greed these days. Way too much dependency on computers and other modern day eletronic gadits to get things done and find ways to make "fast money" for me,,,and not enough dependency on ourselves to work things out together with love and compassion for one another. I'm just old fashioned, I suspose, but I'm a lot more comfortable that way.
I wish you and Mitzie the happiest of Holidays and may God bless.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

rhcarden · From: Lampe,Mo / USA

Bobby is right, if the travel is to fast just move the slave rod to a differant hole.

There is another way to improve the action on all you lowers. With the pedal, or knee lever, pressed, put collars on the push rods behind the bellcranks to prevent the springs from expanding. You can also do this on pulls to reduce the amount of slack you need for lowers.

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Thanks, Bobby, I'll try that next time my guitar is home.

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