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Topic: Question about Spotify (for Jim) |
Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 14 Oct 2012 3:10 pm |
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Jim Cohen's issues with Spotify have gotten me thinking.
Can anyone (Jim?) tell me if you get paid "per listen" ? If it is per listen, then that brings up some interesting new ideas and ways to market.
It shifts the music market away from "purchase" and towards "listen"
Question: if the beatles got paid "per listen" rather than "per record" would they have made more or less money?
If I download Jim's Christmas and Hannuka Favorites (which I can right now) - or actually, not "download" per say but just listen to it, does Jim make money every time I play it.
If so, why don't we all just put the album (those who have Spotify) on repeat when we go to work in the morning? Make Jim some money.
If it is aimed towards: listens, it brings up all sorts of fun marketing ideas where you drive listens on spotify to make your money.
I don't know if that is Spotify's business model, but if it is...it brings up some interesting opportunities. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 14 Oct 2012 3:17 pm
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Yes, Bill, I supposedly get "paid" (if you could even call it that) for each streaming of one of my tunes on Spotify. The amount is $0.0013 per stream. So, for about every 10 streams, I make a penny. So, sure, I think if everyone would put my tunes on permanent rotation to drive up the streamings (assuming one can do that), there is a real chance I could actually make a dime and maybe someday, if we keep it up, it might all add up to a dollar.
What I want to know is: how much is SPOTIFY making while they're throwing fractions of pennies at the artist for use of his/her creative output?
Anyway, if y'all want to run the experiment for a month or two, I'll donate the proceeds to the Forum.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Janice Brooks
From:
Pleasant Gap Pa
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Posted 14 Oct 2012 8:07 pm
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| Jim that would be an interesting experiment |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 1:14 am
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| Jim Cohen wrote: |
Yes, Bill, I supposedly get "paid" (if you could even call it that) for each streaming of one of my tunes on Spotify. The amount is $0.0013 per stream. So, for about every 10 streams, I make a penny. So, sure, I think if everyone would put my tunes on permanent rotation to drive up the streamings (assuming one can do that), there is a real chance I could actually make a dime and maybe someday, if we keep it up, it might all add up to a dollar.
What I want to know is: how much is SPOTIFY making while they're throwing fractions of pennies at the artist for use of his/her creative output?
Anyway, if y'all want to run the experiment for a month or two, I'll donate the proceeds to the Forum. |
They posted a net LOSS of $59 million last year.
_________________
http://www.oldbluesound.com/about.htm
http://www.facebook.com/cowboytwang |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 4:32 am
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| Alvin Blaine wrote: |
| They posted a net LOSS of $59 million last year. |
Oh, okay. I'm a patient man. When, despite their annual operating loss, they sell to google or a venture capital group for half a billion dollars, that's when they'll give the artists retroactive compensation for having achieved their personal fortunes on our backs, right? Because they're really only in it to help the indie artist achieve global stardom, right?
Look, the only thing I can say good about Spotify is that (at least for the present), participation is optional. So I only have 3 tracks that got sent to them before I knew what insulting, paltry amounts they were "paying". Other than that, I don't have to go along with their scheme, and I won't. Unfortunately, I'm caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to iTunes. I would like to have my tracks available through iTunes which, while it doesn't pay as well as CDBaby, at least pays a realistic, measurable amount (something like 65 cents a track, I think). But, in order to participate in this distribution, one must also participate in iTunes Match, which is a scuzzy, lowball streaming site not unlike Spotify. It's a package deal. And that sucks. Don't you see all the leeches out there climbing all over themselves to get rich off the backs of artists to whom they throw fractions of pennies under the guise of giving them "exposure" and a chance to someday be "discovered"? Oldest ruse in the business that doesn't require you to remove your clothes.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 4:56 am
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Jim,
Didn't it used to be with the record companies, that they would pay you 5 cents a record? if 10 streams = a penny, then 50 plays = what you would have received from the record companies on a sale.
If there are 10 songs on the CD, then you get a penny every time the CD is played. The CD is played 100 times you get a buck.
Another way to look at it is every time your CD is played 5 times, you receive what you would have received from a record company in royalties for one sale.
Let me know if I'm missing something here but that doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. When you move your marketing aims to "listen" rather than "purchase" I can think of all sorts of things you could do to drive listens, including creating shareable "playlists" with your music and others on it.
You just need to shift your mindset, perhaps. I mean, getting a penny every time someone played my CD doesn't sound bad to me when you think about the volume that is possible through a global distribution center like spotify.
Anyway, just trying to provide a different business perspective to it. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 5:39 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
Didn't it used to be with the record companies, that they would pay you 5 cents a record? if 10 streams = a penny, then 50 plays = what you would have received from the record companies on a sale.
If there are 10 songs on the CD, then you get a penny every time the CD is played. The CD is played 100 times you get a buck.
Another way to look at it is every time your CD is played 5 times, you receive what you would have received from a record company in royalties for one sale.
Let me know if I'm missing something here but that doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. |
I would say, Bill, that what you might be missing is the perspective that the nickel was also an abusive system and should not be used as an 'acceptable' standard for comparison. Pop music history is rife with the sad tales of 50's and 60's "stars" and big-name groups that, despite huge airways success, died as paupers, having been ripped off famously by their managers, labels, promoters and anybody else who could find a way to leech off their talents.
To say that, with luck (or aggressive self-promotion), one could approach the nickel level of earnings is merely to endorse another abusive system. It's like saying that slaves in the old south should have been thankful that they at least got free room and board.
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| When you move your marketing aims to "listen" rather than "purchase" I can think of all sorts of things you could do to drive listens, including creating shareable "playlists" with your music and others on it. |
That's true and obviously there are plenty of people willing to shift their mindsets from "purchase" to "listen" presumably in the hopes of someday being 'discovered'. I'm not willing to make that shift; I'm interested in recouping the substantial production costs of my recordings. So, as I've said above, the only good thing I can say about Spotify is that participation (unlike historical slavery) is optional.
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 6:36 am
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Jim, I've been a full time entrepreneur for the last 12 years, so maximizing revenue is all important to me. I understand your frustration.
I'm just trying to walk through some alternative ideas that might help maximize your revenue.
As far as whether the old studio system was bad or not, no argument from me. I just used it to illustrate that Spotify is no worse and maybe somewhat better than has been traditionally offered by Record companies. Except in this case, any one can get on board, they don't have to sign a long term deal with a record company; they get creative freedom, no contract, and have the ability to make as much or more than if they had a record deal. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is a better thing than had previously been available.
But let's compare to CDBaby. Here are the questions I ask myself:
1. Is it easier to find one person to pay $10 to download my CD or 30 people to listen to my CD twice for free. Either case equals about the same in revenue (about 60+ cents)
2. If I open my music to Spotify, will it cannibalize sales? That seems to be the real question. With Spotify, your distribution is so much larger, I can't help but think that the cannibalization is minimal and offset by the huge numbers of potential listening audience. Every 65 "listens" equals a single purchase on CDBaby as far as revenue goes.
I can't help but think there are 100 times more jazz fans who would listen to a jazz based steel guitar CD than would purchase.
In my gut, I just think you are cutting off potential revenue by not being on Spotify. I just think that you are so niche, that you would make much more money offering it for a penny a play than $10 a purchase (of which you net 65 cents). There are thousands of jazz fans who just wouldn't think of purchasing a Pedal Steel CD but might listen to one. |
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Iestyn Lewis
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 8:01 am
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I think you have to look at Spotify as purely a promotional tool. Put 3 tracks on it and then direct people to your website. The only way you make any substantial amount of money is to sell a physical CD, right? And if you do sell a physical CD, you're much better off as an indie artist than if you were on a record label, right? It doesn't sound like any streaming or digital distribution service gives you enough per play to be worth it unless you are a major artist.
It may be out of left field, but have you considered offering vinyl? There's been a big surge in records lately. For my own part, I'd either rather have digital files or a record. Records for relaxing and really getting into the music, with my high quality system, and digital files for everything else. A CD is in this annoying in-between space - I either rip it to digital tracks, or it gathers dust.
http://www.urpressing.com/quotegen12.php
_________________
Iestyn
http://facebook.com/trcguitars |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 10:16 am
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Iestyn, I think the problem is that a lot of people ( and I include myself in that category) just don't buy music anymore: CD's, Vinyl, or even downloads.
When I can use a service like Spotify, and can bring up the entire Bluenote catalog for free ( I pay the $10 a month) why would I ever spend money on new music again? I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but just the reality of today's music scene.
That means that the only way you will get money from me (and I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on CD's and LP's over the years, all of which are gathering dust) is by getting money from me when I listen online.
All my other music money goes to live performance. |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 10:35 am
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I'm really short on money and if that would not be the case, I would have already bought the CD from Jim, and not only his, but a few more recent releases available here.
I still think that it's a lot nicer to play a compact disc or even an album, good idea Iestyn, than listening to the computer speakers.
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 10:41 am
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"I still think that it's a lot nicer to play a compact disc or even an album, good idea Iestyn, than listening to the computer speakers."
Except that most people don't listen to music on computer speakers anymore. My current system is that I have Mac Airport Expresses all over my house connected to all of my stereo systems. I then use my Ipad (or my computer) to play any music I want from Spotify to any speaker in my house. It is a pretty nice system. I never even have to get up from my chair. |
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Jon Sawyer
From:
Richmond, California
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 10:48 am Spotify and today's music biz in general.
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I am one of the ones that still spends money on music, physical hard copies no less..
I feel an MP3 file just doesn't sound as good as a cd or vinyl, I can hear the compression, especially on lower res files. I still have nice stereo equipment at home, big studio monitors, and I enjoy cranking up a cd on occasion. To each his own. It will be a sad for me day when artists quit releasing cd's/albums in hard copy form; I hope it never happens.
I do know I have been on the production side of a few independent non-mainstream releases over the last 5 years, and although they all received some great reviews and some radio airplay, none of them have generated a profit. It appears today's music business plan is to make your money off touring, because unless you are Lady Gaga you're probably not gonna make a profit on your cd/vinyl sales. Personally, the stuff I have been involved in, we paid for it ourselves or used Kickstarter, and we're about to Kickstart another project.
I do use Spotify at work sometimes, mainly to check out an artist I haven't heard before whose name pops up. If I like it, I eventually buy it. The cd's I have been involved in: They were added to Spotify in our cdbaby deal, and when we figured it out we chose to leave 'em in there because we want to be heard. Again, to each his own.
Luckily I live in the vicinity of some really good music stores, and I can find a huge variety of stuff, both new and used (I know, used is a whole other can of worms).
Just my 2 cents.
Later, Jon |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 12:17 pm
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"I am one of the ones that still spends money on music, physical hard copies no less.. "
I have probably nearly 1000 cd's and 4-5 hundred LP's. Every time I move, I have to lug them around and personally, at this stage I'm trying to clear things out of my life, not add more. The CD's have been in a garage for the last 5 years (originally I just burned them losslessly and stored them on a hard drive. My hard drive crashed twice and after the last time, I don't store tracks anymore. Everything I listen to these days is either internet radio or spotify.
I understand the loss of the physical object. I'm still lamenting the loss of the LP. But it is the way of the world and where things are going. The days of making a physical object like a CD and selling it for a profit are long gone I'm afraid. I'm not saying it is good or bad, it is what it is. You evolve or die.
But I do know I used to spend A LOT of money on LP's and CD's. For decades. I worked in record stores. And if I'm not buying music anymore, that means a lot of people who kept the record industry afloat are not buying music anymore.
And neither my ears nor my stereo system are good enough to tell the difference. |
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Jason Schofield
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Posted 15 Oct 2012 1:44 pm
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Bill, I'm just like you. I'm 41 now and have been buying lps, cassettes (remember those) and cds since I was 8 years old. Probably spent a small fortune. At one point I had about 500 cds and 800 vinyl lps and decided to move to California from Michigan. Was I going to lug those around one more time when I barley touched them anymore. No. Saved about 100 of my vinyl records and gave the rest away.. along with about 200 vhs tapes..haha.. I burned everything onto my hard drive and I've been collecting mp3s' for about the last 10 years. Now I have about 400gbs of music on my hard drive that I hand collected. I spent hundreds of hours fixing mp3 tags making sure my collection was immaculate. Since I discovered Spotify last year, even my hard drive is collecting dust. Along with Bandcamp and Soundcloud ect.. There is just so much music available online that my life long pursuit of collecting music is over. It's sad because going record shopping was one of the greatest passions of my life.
One last thing in regards to making money these days. In the last few years (thanks to Spotify ect..) I have discovered hundreds of new bands and artist. Hundreds. It's so overwhelming the amount of music that is out there now I just don't see how anyone can hope to make money in the business anymore except for the big blockbuster artists that they spend millions promoting. It's beyond over saturated. Just my 2 cents.. or 60 plays on Spotify..lol.. take care. j |
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Jason Schofield
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 16 Oct 2012 4:20 am
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Jason, I echo your thoughts. Collecting music, searching rare or hard to get music was my life passion for so much of my life. I still remember the thrill of taking a trip to New York to go to Sam Goodies ( pre-tower records days) to find a rare Harry Partch LP, or an album of shakuhachi flute music.
Like letter writing (which is also gone) it is one of the early pleasures in my life that gone. There is just too much music (as you said) available on line that I know I'll never get through it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Oct 2012 7:49 am
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| Quote: |
Don't you see all the leeches out there climbing all over themselves to get rich off the backs of artists to whom they throw fractions of pennies under the guise of giving them "exposure" and a chance to someday be "discovered"? Oldest ruse in the business that doesn't require you to remove your clothes.
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Yes, I see that. And apparently, you do too. It's a shame that millions of others are so obsessed with a quest for fame that they do not. Probably 99.9% of all internet offers of "help and promotion" are a sham, nothing but a ruse meant to take advantage of naive people.  |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 16 Oct 2012 10:18 am
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As along time music listener (aproximatly 45 years) I've come to a saturation point. And I finally came to the conclusion that it takes at least ten repeated plays to find out what's really going on in a recording. I have no use for a music overload anymore.
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Jon Sawyer
From:
Richmond, California
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Posted 16 Oct 2012 1:27 pm
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P.S. I wasn't implying anything was wrong with choosing to go the pure digital radio/Spotify route. It's my personal choice to continue to buy music in physical form  For the record I am 46, have been collecting music since I was 14. I have thousands of cd's, and a couple hundred very rare albums (I ebayed the rest of my albums years ago)... I have a large room/man-cave filled with music, dvd's, and framed posters. I do realize I am a dying breed  |
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